2016 Health Study on Vaccinated Vs. Unvaccinated Children Pulled From Publication After It Found Vaxxed Kids More Likely to Get Autism

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forced vaccination

by Catherine J Frompovich

The just-ended presidential election cycle in the USA has something very much in common with vaccine ‘science’, or so it seems: Both produce results that are questioned, contentious and even manipulated with varying degrees of culpability. Strong words!

Maybe, but factual to the point of proof as in the scientific journal article that was “unpublished” after vaccine acolytes raised all sorts of hell about it and the study’s results proving that “Vaccinated children were significantly less likely than the unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with chickenpox and pertussis, but significantly more likely to have been diagnosed with pneumonia, otitis media, allergies and NDDs (defined as Autism Spectrum Disorder, Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, and/or a learning disability).”

In the Abstract’s Conclusion, it was noted that “In this study based on mothers’ reports, the vaccinated had a higher rate of allergies and NDD than the unvaccinated. Vaccination, but not preterm birth, remained significantly associated with NDD after controlling for other factors. However, preterm birth combined with vaccination was associated with an apparent synergistic increase in the odds of NDD. Further research involving larger, independent samples is needed to verify and understand these unexpected findings in order to optimize the impact of vaccines on children’s health.”

According to Baxter Dmitry at IWB (Investment Watch Blog) [1], the study was “unpublished” at Frontiers In Public Health, “but a cached version available on internet archives has also been removed, suggesting there is a serious campaign to stop members of the public from viewing the study. However a screenshot of the abstract was saved before it was scrubbed from the internet,” and which I have inserted below thanks to Baxter Dmitry.

Question: Does anything sound familiar regarding control mechanisms, especially when things don’t go the way controlling interests want them to go?

Answer: Either pull the article a la Dr Andrew Wakefield notoriety or demand vote recounts all the way up to a state’s Supreme Court!

However, there’s manipulation by the vaccine industry and its ‘press corps’ extolling totally unscientific and fraudulent reports (as confirmed by various Big Pharma [4] and CDC [5] whistleblowers) published everywhere with great fanfare, even when many of those vaccines are the ‘coincidences’ that cause today’s horrendous neurodevelopmental disorders not seen in the medical literature until the onset [late 1980s forward] of mandated vaccinations, some starting immediately after birth!

Personally, I find it extremely interesting that scientific journals obviously kowtow to skewed pro-vaccine science radical acolytes, especially those who promote apparently fraudulent studies such as Frank DeStefano, William Thompson and Coleen Boyle—U.S. CDC employees and bureaucrats, while Congress boldly looks the other way!

Generally, I think the vaccine industry and Big Pharma, in particular, owe Coleen Boyle, PhD, a tremendous debt of gratitude because she apparently perfected and became the ‘Mother of Obfuscation’ regarding the manipulation of research data to produce statistical results vested-interests want and need for published scientific studies. Her research ‘magic and fingerprints’ apparently can be found in the Vietnam Agent Orange and several vaccine studies, especially the famous Danish MMR vaccine—no-Autism-link study!

Boyle’s ‘research’ work on disassociating Agent Orange with Vietnam War veterans’ health problems obviously gained her not only the respect of the pharmaceutical industry but a unique status and position she obviously enjoys within CDC as their ‘point person’ before Congress.

Furthermore, Boyle apparently played a ‘guiding tutorial role’ along with Diana Schendel (Thorsen’s CDC girlfriend) in the Poul Thorsen Danish MMR vaccine study the CDC always trots out as proof that the MMR vaccine does not cause Autism based upon Danish health data that were massaged around to get the results the CDC obviously was looking for, but also was scammed out of more than $2 million by indicted and “criminal-at-large-in-Denmark” Poul Thorsen!

If any paper should be retracted, vilified and removed from publication on the CDC’s website and in the New England Journal of Medicine, it should be the Poul Thorsen Danish MMR vaccine study [2, 3] co-authored with Diana Schendel, which you can read here that states, “This study provides strong evidence against the hypothesis that MMR vaccination causes autism.”

N Engl J Med. 2002 Nov 7;347(19):1477-82.

A population-based study of measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination and autism.

Madsen KM1, Hviid A, Vestergaard M, Schendel D, Wohlfahrt J, Thorsen P, Olsen J, Melbye M

The double-standards, which ‘guide’ and prevail regarding vested-interest-science and independent-research-science studies publication, retractions and discussions about vaccines, must be addressed if there is to be any hope of ever ending the ever-growing, frightening neurodevelopmental disorders* children have been contracting overwhelmingly [6] ever since vaccines took off [7] like greased lightning at the behest of the CDC/FDA, the totally-misinformed-and-proselytized medical professions and their financially-generous ‘muse’, Big pHARMa.

  • 15 percent in 3 to 17 year old children in the USA (2015 EPA) [8]

28842016

References:

[1] investmentwatchblog.com
[2] robertfkennedyjr.com
[3] huffingtonpost.com
[4] philadelphia.legalexaminer.com
[5] youtube.com/watch?v=EdCU2DfMBpU
[6] cdc.gov
[7] cdc.gov
[8] epa.gov

Related Viewing: Vaxxed

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  • g.johnon

    looks like them “conspeeracy theerists” were right on the money once again. they seem to be batting a thousand.

    • Jas

      It’s easy to be right when we know everything they say to us is the opposite of the truth!

      • Al Mather

        “They” ??
        Don’t be a caricature.

        • Gary

          Don’t be a shill. 🙂

          • Al Mather

            Don’t be a conspirotard..

          • Gary

            Don’t be a coinci-turd. 🙂

          • Al Mather

            If it was required to specifically identify “they” …and provide some kind of cogent explanation of what it is you idiots think “they” did… there would be about 80% less stupidity spread on these fake news /fear porn/ conspirotard sites

          • Gary

            Я0llyJ0g3r and I have done that countless times, Al. In fact, the more we do it, the greater the stupidity, as people speaking the truth attract all manner of shills. 🙂

          • Al Mather

            ” In fact, the more we do it, the greater the stupidity”..

            Finally …some honesty.

            No, Gar,…you and Roger provide very vague general answers.. there are specific questions put to you 2 idiots about the who,how, whys of your cult of stupidity.. which you dodge like bullets.When the questions reveal the absurdity of FE you 2 pussy out by crying “shill” and run away.

          • Gary

            Lol. See Al? This is why you are the king of shills. You lack any shred of competence and cannot present a sound argument, yet you unashamedly declare yourself the winner of debate after debate.

          • Al Mather

            They’re hardly debates, Gary… juse you 2 crying shill at every public spanking … then running away.

          • Gary

            Others are only joining in the fun ’cause we have you outnumbered, Al. Doesn’t do well to the shill cause too have too many people speaking the truth, as the shills get drowned out, and sheep like to follow the crowd. Hence more shills, but I’m not surprised, Al. Just means the tides are turning faster than your masters would like.

            I wonder how many additional accounts you control? At least one, I’d wager, based on the time you upticked yourself by mistake! 🙂

          • Al Mather

            “the shill cause” …lol..

            Gary …. if you idiots were speaking “truths” …. you won’t constantly be getting intellectually spanked, factually crushed, and publicly embarrassed as you are constantly caught out in bullshit and ignorance… By “shills”

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fd13f70d3ac5dbd7d94469fe37c0d81b7bf6670250fa1a9180c6d8aaf0a029d9.jpg

            A quick look at the accounts,profiles and comment history of people tells a lot. As one can imagine “puppet” accounts would be sycophantic…95% of your upticks coming from a “puppet master” as they spoke through you …. kind of like the relationship between you and Roger and Paranoid.

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W

            Gorski, you forgot to pick the dirt from under unkempt nails. Too bad for former surgeon. Too much trolling on internet, too little time to wash yourself.

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W

            Rumors are that Gorski controls at least 20 accounts. There is special software that allows to use several accounts at the same time. He is very clingy.

          • “Rumours” In other words, you have no proof. Thought so.

          • EEJIT

            As you KNOW about this SPECIAL software,whats to say who you are,perhaps Ron or Lowell or Sue or Gary?You all sound the same with your asinine comments.

          • Not really. Even chumps fight back successfully. More like counting practice dummies as a match.

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W

            Gary is wrong, You, Gorsky is not a king, you are over- vaccinated toilet dweller, who will lower the level of any discussion with your characteristic verbal diarrhea. That is why your owners pay you to appear on vaccine sites.

          • If you’re speaking the truth, you ought to be able to provide actual evidence.

          • Gary

            As stated, its been done countless times.

          • Then why is it so hard to cite it?

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W

            Hey, crazy vaccine shill Gorsky, are you back from NY pro vaxx conference? Did you licked Offit’s feet thoroughly enough this time? Did your other accounts / co shills from your skeptical raptor websites (kfunk, reality, etc,) were admitted to the Holy Cowoffit’s body? At least kiss the the sole of his boots?

          • AutismDadd

            I guess they attend to learn the latest magic tricks and meme’s. The old ones are so worn and thread bare, you can predict what they will spray next.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I guess they attend to learn the latest magic tricks and meme’s. The old ones are so worn and thread bare, you can predict what they will spray next.

            Well considering that the vast majority of what you say (or spray) falls under the category of “vague assertions” I think you’re probably describing yourself more than anyone pro-vaccine. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            A yawn is in order after that dud

          • Jonathan Graham

            …and again you are making vague assertions.

          • AutismDadd

            Not vague at all, its a dud.

          • Jonathan Graham

            …which is a vague assertion.

          • Kevin

            Hi, is that similar to a retard?

  • lol, they don’t want ANY data getting out about vaccinated vs. unvaccinated because it will destroy their credibility and they know it. It is not possible to gain immunity via injection no matter how magical they fluff the toxic substance inside to be. Antibodies do not equal immunity. Friggin’ quacks and shills, the lot of ’em.

      • Ron Roy

        Old meme. A product of the drug industry.

        • And your evidence is?

          • Ron Roy

            The obvious.

          • Then it should be easy to post it.

          • Ron Roy

            [2010 Nov] Lies, Damned Lies, and Medical Science He
            charges that as much as 90 percent of the published medical information that
            doctors rely on is flawed……he worries that the field of medical research is
            so pervasively flawed, and so riddled with conflicts of interest, that it might
            be chronically resistant to change—or even to publicly admitting that there’s a
            problem…80 percent of non-randomized studies (by far the most common type)
            turn out to be wrong, as do 25 percent of supposedly gold-standard randomized
            trials, and as much as 10 percent of the platinum-standard large randomized
            trials. The article spelled out his belief that researchers were frequently
            manipulating data analyses, chasing career-advancing findings rather than good
            science, and even using the peer-review process—in which journals ask
            researchers to help decide which studies to publish—to suppress opposing views.

            ……Of the 49 articles, 45 claimed to have uncovered effective interventions.
            Thirty-four of these claims had been retested, and 14 of these, or 41 percent,
            had been convincingly shown to be wrong or significantly exaggerated. If between
            a third and a half of the most acclaimed research in medicine was proving
            untrustworthy, the scope and impact of the problem were undeniable.

          • Mike Stevens

            I guess those studies by Wakefield were all flawed then, using your logic?

          • Ron Roy

            No they were right on the money but since Wakefield and his collaborators were not against vaccines their paper was published. However when, I believe it was Merck, was going to go back to making single dose vaccines, because the combination was proven to cause autism, it hit the fan. Big money was at stake All of a sudden they had to discredit Wakefield and his collaborators. The MEDICAL MAFIA at it’s finest.

          • Mike Stevens

            But…. but….
            ….I thought you had said published medical studies were garbage.
            Sorry, I must have been mistaken!

          • Ron Roy

            Stuttering problem? A few( very few ) studies slip through the cracks but but ( see I can stutter too ) they are retracted. My guess is some studies that would effect your employers bottom line are intentionally allow to slip through the cracks in order to have a public forum in to destroy them. With phony studies of course.

          • Mike Stevens

            OK, I get it now… The “phony studies” are allowed to be published in the international literature, the “real studies” (like Wakefraud’s) are retracted, all courtesy of the MEDICAL MAFIA.
            Makes perfect sense to those with a conspiracy fetish, Ron.

          • Gary

            The real studies that cause any problems. You obviously have never been involved in research, as you seem to be having a lot of trouble understanding how its funded.

            Coincidence fetish, or just another shill?

          • Mike Stevens

            I am principal Investigator for my NHS Trust for two multicentre trials funded through NIHR, one for Meningitis UK and another for DexEnceph (studies on neuroinfection). I have participated in many trials as Site Investigator.
            I assume because you have no valid point to make that you feel the need to wave the following?
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/13ee24c1d1aac830bfa7e9262e338796539f6525879968601db3f33bc88521a1.jpg

          • Gary

            Just pointing out the obvious – either you’re not involved in research (as you don’t know how its funded), or if you are involved, you must be the janitor or something. Or perhaps you are involved in research and do know how its funded (not being the janitor or similar), but pretend you don’t for nefarious purposes. Hence the rational accusation of shill.

            Either you don’t know what you’re talking about, or you’re deliberately lying for personal gain. Neither option is looking good for you.

          • Mike Stevens

            Just pointing out the obvious… You are the one who is lying.

            I know how research is funded. My own is, as I explained, via NIHR (look it up), but other research is funded through research councils such as the MRC (look it up), various charitable organisations, government agencies, universities and academic institutions, agencies such as the European Commission, Public Health bodies, and industry.
            If you can explain the relevance of each of these different sources of funding to the publication of the research in the scientific literature, go ahead.

            I know you will try and play the conspiracy card, and claim all studies are pharma funded, and that not a single medical journal is independent, but all are totally under the editorial thumb of Pharma, but if you do you will just be displaying your own ignorance and bias.

          • Leslie

            How can you claim independence from Big Pharma in your research when the University of Liverpool’s chemistry department admits to partnering with Big Pharma?

          • Possibly because Mike doesn’t work at the University of Liverpool?

          • shay simmons

            Picky, picky, picky.

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W

            It is not Mike, it is David (Gorski). With his craziness, he can not comprehend chemistry, so pro-vaxx trolling on internet is the only pastime left to him (you). Or is it Ze now?

          • Evidence?

          • Evidence that Mike, Gorski and David and I are same person?

          • Mike Stevens

            Well since my research has absolutely nothing to do with the University of Liverpool Chemistry department, I don’t know what you mean.

            The research I do is funded through NIHR which is indirectly funded through the UK dept of health.
            http://www.nihr.ac.uk/

          • Leslie

            But Big Pharma has insidiously inserted itself in many university departments in the UK.

            Take for instance the University of Liverpool’s Institute for Infection and Global Health: “Our research is interdisciplinary and we work with a vast range of experts and partners locally, nationally and internationally. Our major funders include the UK research councils, National Institute for Health Research (NIHR), European Commission, Wellcome Trust, Gates Foundation, smaller charities and many pharmaceutical and industrial partners.”

          • Mike Stevens

            I’m still not seeing where the NIHR is getting pharma funding…..

            Just admit it, you are barking up the wrong tree in your desperation to demonstrate something which is not only non-existent, but quite irrelevant and tangential to the original point.

          • AutismDadd

            More lying from Mike. He thinks research money grows on trees. But the trees are sprayed with Monsanto products and are on GlaxoSmithKline and MERCK (synonymous with consumer death) property.

          • AutismDadd

            AKA: the Pharmafia

          • Mike doesn’t work at the University of Liverpool!!

          • AutismDadd

            Part of the General Medical Council perhaps?

          • AutismDadd

            Mike will just lie. That’s what they are instructed to do. ” First admit no harm” is the new medical creed.

          • Al Mather

            Never stopped him before.

          • Ron Roy

            ”and industry.” PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES.

          • Mike Stevens

            Wow! It can read!

          • AutismDadd

            Wow Mike can lie!

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W

            Mike can not lie. He can only fill internet with pathetic attempts to lie. provaxxly.

          • blue579

            Duplicate message, in case you don’t see my reply on SV40 on A.P. ……… Anyway, I found recent scientific info supporting the view SV40 is indeed still considered transformative, including a 2016 study (on pub med) examining inflammatory and turmoral mediators. My bet is SV40 is also still recognized as having a tendency to disrupt p53. I would need to dig some more. Even Wiki admits a cancer link => [“The National Academy of Sciences Immunization Safety Review committee stated, “The committee concludes that the biological evidence is moderate that SV40 exposure could lead to cancer in humans under natural conditions.”…Namika et al found that the SV40 large t-antigen, in combination with mycoplasma, often a contaminate of vaccines, can cause prostate cells to turn cancerous. Whether or not this is true for other human cells is debated.” ]

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W

            Just in case, I copied and reposted my answer, because I do not see it too. disappeared.
            I will look at prostate cancer article.

            2 websites created by Horwin family: ouralexander dot org and sv40foundation dot org. They investigated and uncovered the whole can of worms after the death of their son from polio vaccine initiated cancer.

            “Doctor Mary’s Monkey – jaw dropping book by Ed Haslam, reads like detective story.

            FDA website September19 2012 – permission given for 4 types of human cancer cells to be used to grow vaccine viruses. No control of residual cancer DNA in vaccines.

            Spread the word to good people and good luck to you.

          • blue579

            I found the Sept 2012 FDA pdf report. Excellent tip, thanks. I assume you’re aware of the anticipated use of precision genetic engineering for vaccine applications and recent trials directly modifying the cellular DNA of static tissue (e.g. muscle) with insertions. Jon Rappoport wrote a commentary on the latter.

          • blue579

            I received your message (thought it’s not here on the thread yet). I read the book and am familiar with the sv40 website. Thanks for the 2012 study info. Best of luck to you too.

          • That doesn’t necessarily mean funding from.

            UK hospital: Hey guys, we need a heart medicine that does this, that and t’other.

            Pharma: *gets on it*

            At no point, has pharma given funding to UK hospital at this point. Still “working with.”

          • Mike Stevens

            Yes, industry is one source of funding, along with research councils such as the MRC (look it
            up), various charitable organisations, government agencies, universities
            and academic institutions, agencies such as the European Commission,
            Public Health bodies, etc.
            Did you forget all those other funders?

          • Ron Roy

            And who funds these various charitable organisations, government agencies, universities
            and academic institutions, agencies such as the European Commission,
            Public Health bodies, etc ?

          • Mike Stevens

            Usually public donations, student fees, bequests, or tax-derived government funding.

          • Ron Roy

            AND grants from pharmaceutical companies. FTFY

          • Mike Stevens

            if so, they are unrestricted.
            I recall one meeting I went to where an AIDS charity in South Africa had presented data it collected about switching from abacavir to tenofovir.
            They thanked the contributors to the research at the end, which included one pharma company, GSK.

            GSK make abacavir, and Gilead make tenofovir.
            Can you explain that one to me Ron, and explain how GSK MEDICAL MAFIA influenced and corrupted the research that saw doctors stopping their own drug and substituting another?

          • Ron Roy

            1. HIV (like other viruses) is harmless after antibody immunity

            2. HIV does not kill T-Cells it infects

            3. HIV does not infect enough T-Cells to cause Aids

            4. HIV has no AIDS causing gene

            5. There is no such thing as a slow virus

            6. HIV is not a new virus, so it could not cause a “new” epidemic

            7. HIV fails Koch’s postulates

            8. AIDS has remained in its original risk groups

            9. The international profile of AIDS patients is inconsistent

            10. AIDS occurs without HIV infection. Most people with HIV never develop AIDS

          • Mike Stevens

            Ahhhh… I love a whiff of that crank magnetism in the morning, Ron.

            …Vaccine denialist, HIV/AIDS denialist, germ denialist, 9/11 troofer… is there no ridiculous notion you will not espouse?
            Please keep posting – I want all lreaders to see what loons you antivax crew really are.

          • Ron Roy

            9/11 emmmm. Oh can you explain te me just why and how building number 7 went down? And how could a reporter say ( I’m paraphrasing ) ” Building number 7 just went down” when it didn’t collapse until 20 minutes LATER?

          • Nobody has such zeal over some company’s profit producing products as much as the so obvious shills, lol

          • Oh… lookie here, a shill is using memes, that must mean it’s right and I’m wrong, lol.

          • 1)Evidence of payment?

            2)You ought to be able to provide a rebuttal regardless.

            3)Nonsense. All that meme does is address the logic of your argument – it can’t and isn’t intended to do anything about the conclusion.

          • 1)Your posts – you shills keep asking me for evidence of payment, I list your posts as the evidence which is very obvious.

            2)I have no rebuttal? I call your entire corporate garbage info sector $cience which openly mocks your bought and paid for, predetermined-results “studies” you erroneously call science so I help both you and the readers here out a little bit by changing it to something more accurate like $cience since when referencing $cience the money always comes first, get it? That sounds like a rebuttal to me.

            3)If you re-read what I did I just posted a reply to Gary, that’s all, so there is no “logic to my argument” because I was not arguing with Gary, lol. #readingcomprehensionmatters

          • Those are claims, not evidence.

          • Just like your $cience is! Geez, we’re just going to go in circles here….

          • What’s your excuse for Gadad et al?

          • What’s yours for using $cience?

          • I don’t need any, JollyRoger. You’re the one claiming they’re bought and paid for – your claim, your burden of proof.

          • Have you not been present when they’ve gotten caught lying and cheating over and over?

            https://www.scribd.com/document/46692982/Penalties-Against-the-Pharmaceutical-Industry-1991-to-2010

            Bunch of criminals:

            Big Pharma: Biggest Defrauder of Federal Government
            http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/12/31/drug-industry-more-criminal-than-other-industry.aspx

            I’m a busy person with not much time for this since I’m not a paid shill but that wasn’t too much of a burden and if you weren’t a shill you wouldn’t act like this info doesn’t exist.

            Good luck with your shillin’, I don’t think many are convinced though, I gotta be honest 🙂

          • Again, that’s a claim.

          • EEJIT

            Hi,I am still waiting for him to prove that I am a paid troll.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I list your posts as the evidence which is very obvious.

            No it’s not evidence. What it is, is an implied assertion (nobody can post like X without being paid by Y). So it’s kind of the opposite of evidence.

          • So it is a form of begging the question then.

          • Oh, please, you guys are obvious for all to see… except you guys, lol

          • Jonathan Graham

            Saying something is obvious is also not evidence. It’s an assertion. So are you implicitly claiming you have no evidence that particular posters here get directly paid to post?

          • No, I’m explicitly calling you and all other vaccine promoters here shills… because you’re shills, not because I have your SSN and know your employer, but because normal humans do not possess this much zeal for the profit making poisons of pharmaceutical companies. It is plainly obvious what you are regardless of your denial.

          • Jonathan Graham

            No, I’m explicitly calling you and all other vaccine promoters here shills

            Which is again implicitly stating you have no evidence that anyone is getting paid to post here.

            but because normal humans do not possess this much zeal for the profit making poisons of pharmaceutical companies

            Well a) it’s unlikely anyone is interested in people making profits off poisons. I rather suspect all of us rather sincerely believe vaccines are safe and effective. b) As for “zeal” you’re probably mistaking volume for zeal. Some of the people who get accused of being shills post pretty frequently. c) Frequency doesn’t convert into time spent without a rather large amount of variability. So what some people think is a significant time investment is – for me just a few minutes. d) The normal distribution pretty much explains everything else.

          • There goes another nugget from that endless pile-o-denial you got stashed away over there, lol!

            If these profit-making products were anything but toxic poison requiring a kangaroo court to stay in business they’re so dangerous and also require an army of “not-shills” to go online and tout their effectiveness and troll website comment sections they’d just sell themselves like pancakes without your help, right? I mean, where are the Subarau shills and the Mercedes shills at? Where’s the kangaroo court that Mercedes and Subaru need to stay in business because their cars are so dangerous?

          • Jonathan Graham

            Well that’s a big steaming stream-of-consciousness post. I’ll respond by saying that if by “kangaroo court” you mean a special court like the NVICP then again Canada (with the exception of Quebec) doesn’t have such a thing and the vaccine companies still stay in business. As for your point about “not shills” I’ll mention that you have pretty much fabricated the idea that specific people you’ve mentioned here on Disqus are shills.

            So using a fabricated idea as evidence of a problem with vaccines isn’t likely to get you an answer that’s sufficiently far from crazy to actually make some sense.

          • Well using corporate, bought and paid for junk $cience (that fabricated nonsense the government allows to be called science) to back up your poisons isn’t exactly a sane thing to do now, Jonathan. Using it to harm children is worse.

          • Subaru and Mercedes….so shills shill for specific brands and not cars in general?

          • Ron Roy

            Just the fact that they know vaccines are not safe or protective is proof that they have to be [aid to say otherwise. This $$$$$$$ is a mighty incentive to kill a conscience

          • Jonathan Graham

            Evidence says that vaccines are safe and effective Ron. Sorry. Your fantasy to believe that people like myself are paid to be here is just something you believe to deal with your cognitive dissonance. 🙂

          • Not that it really matters if you’re paid or not. It does nothing to alter the truth or falsity of your claims besides the one about being paid or not. It doesn’t make anecdote evidence rather than anecdote.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Yes, argument stand on their own merits regardless of anyone being paid to speak them. However if we are looking at an persons position (such as the vast majority of the evidence provided by vaccine critical folk) in those things there are definitely other things shaping their position.

            I always find it interesting how the vaccine critical folk often cite “money” as a motive but never the other social and dissonance avoiding ways that people are “paid” to keep one position or another.

          • Then it should be easy for you to provide evidence since it’s so obvious. What’s the matter?

          • Provide? Oh, it’s even easier than that, you actually type the evidence for me and all to see that you’re paid shills! I don’t have to do anything except make fun of your shilling but that’s just for fun 🙂

          • And yet you can’t provide a single shred of evidence.

          • Lurkers:

            I want you to imagine for a minute that you have been selected for jury duty, and you are sitting in the courtroom listening to the evidence. As you watch, the prosecution calls an expert forensic scientist to the stand, and they carefully explain the facts concerning the forensic evidence, all of which point towards the defendant’s guilt.

            Then, the defendant’s lawyer stands up and shouts, “Objection, this witness has been paid off to lie about my client!” After a moment of shocked silence, the judge says, “That is quite a claim. What evidence do you have to support it?”

            The lawyer then responds simply by saying, “only someone who had been bought off would say things like that against my client.” Now, what do you think is going to happen next? Is that a reasonable defense that the judge will accept?

          • AutismDadd

            You just admitted being part of the vaccine Mafia. Minion or Shill…your choice.

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W

            Gorski, you keep posting your picture with uncut dirty nails under different names, and then upvote yourself with your other identities from your scinceblog smelly site. Wash you hands, failed unwashed surgeon, then retake the picture.

          • What is your evidence that Mike is a Gorski sockpuppet?

          • Sherry Van Valkenburgh

            It was a paper, NOT a study! He never said the MMR caused autism, just that studies should be done on using a single vaccine vs.more than one vaccine at once.

          • Mike Stevens

            “It was a paper, NOT a study! “

            Just for your info, Sherry, “a paper” in usual medical parlance is the umbrella term for anything that gets published in the scientific literature. This can be an original research study, a case series, a case report, a systematic review, a metanalysis, anything.
            A study is the term reserved for any body of work where research was undertaken.

            Wakefield’s Lancet study was certainly research – he investigated children by submitting a research protocol which required ethics committee approval. He also compared methylmalonic acid in the cases and compared these to a control group.

            I know antivax people like to suggest that he didn’t really do a “research study”, but that plainly isn’t true.

          • Um? Sherry has to know this in order to know it is all wrong so I wonder why she is lying about it.

          • 1)That is like saying that it was a textbook on physics and not a book.

            2)Yes, he did. Just on the media circuit.

            3)Actually, during the press conference, he said he could no longer support the *use* of MMR and recommended that the single measles vaccine be used instead. Andrew Wakefield had a patent on the single measles vaccine in question, by the way.

            Since you are so much smarter than global scientific and medical consensus, you already know all of this which means you are intentionally telling us false statements i.e. lying.

            What do you think it says if you have to lie to support your point?

          • AutismDadd

            True. It was all jacked up for the show trial.

          • Jonathan Graham

            He never said the MMR caused autism,

            From the study

            Table 2 summarises the neuropsychiatric diagnoses; the apparent precipitating events;

            A precipitating event is something that causes something else. So if you want to split the hair that “Wakefield did not claim X caused Y” you do have to believe that Wakefield believed that MMR strongly appeared to caused autism (among other things).

          • Gary

            In the first graph, retitle the “General Trend” as “Outliers not supporting our hypothesis”, and the “Outlier” as “General Trend”, and you’ll have a realistic graph of how vaccinators promote their fake science.

          • Gary

            Yeah, even if those figures are true, which I doubt, compare the revenue of the organic industry to the revenue of the Big Pharma industry. To make a fair comparison, one would also need to compare the number of participants in each industry.

            And the safety of natural foods is not in question – we’ve been eating these for the last 6000 or so years without issue.

          • Which one? Big Pharma has competing companies.

            As for the safety of natural foods not being in question…um…so? That has no bearing on whether GMOs are safe or not.

            We’ve been using vaccines for about 200 years without issue, too. Lots of issues have been faked, sure.

          • Gary

            Lol. Without issue? So cancer, SIDS, AIDS, autism, polio, etc. etc. are non-issues? Vaccines are a case of the cure being worse than the illness. 🙂

          • Gary

            Vaccines cause both SIDS and autism. If you’re unable to comprehend this, it doesn’t change the fact.

            Some men in Africa claim AIDS can be cured by bedding a specified number of virgins. Sincerity of belief, nor number of believers, does not a difference make to the truth.

          • Jonathan Graham

            So now you admit that papers which are critical of pharmaceuticals and pharmaceutical companies get published. However the vast majority don’t get retracted and of course in terms of getting bad drugs or therapies off the market the scorecard is forever in favor of these researchers which you delude yourself into thinking are part of a medical mafia. So from your weirdo perspective – every medical mafioso has accomplished more than your lot has.

          • Ever find it amusing that the CDC recommends against using FluMist because the meDIcaL MafIA found out it no longer works? I love that in every instance of an unsafe or ineffective vaccine being pulled or discouraged by manufacturers or regulators, anti-vaxxers and their celebrity salesmen had absolutely nothing to do with it.

          • Ron Roy

            Once in a G R E A T while one might slip through the cracks and they do get retracted. And it’s not researchers who get bad ( they’re all bad ) drugs off the market it’s public pressure through lawsuits that force drug companies to take them off the market.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Once in a G R E A T while one might slip through the cracks and they do get retracted.

            Ron, there are articles of the kind I describe that are not retracted and it’s hardly once in a great while either. So as usual this is just you making up a fiction to feed your deranged worldview.

            And it’s not researchers who get bad ( they’re all bad ) drugs off the market it’s public pressure through lawsuits that force drug companies to take them off the market.

            Again this is entirely made up. Think – for once in your life. A 20% increase in heart attacks for a medication that was prescribed to a 5% of the population would be virtually impossible for a person to detect. Only one extra observation in a hundred.

          • Ron Roy

            Oh ad just how would that be detected?

          • Jonathan Graham

            It varies. Sometimes it’s concerns from a second look from pre-existing research. Post-market surveillance or even VAERS. Which leads to further study. Which results in useful research and in turn a withdrawal.

          • Leslie

            Or it’s criminal and civil actions brought against them, which still doesn’t change their corrupt behavior:

            “Pharmaceutical companies are some of the most egregious corporate lawbreakers in the world. The offenses include poor manufacturing practices, kickbacks, the sale of tainted drugs and outright deception and fraud. They can afford to employ an army of attorneys and keep legal matters tied up in the court system for a decade or more. They have paid billions of dollars in fines over the last ten years, much of it as punishment for criminal behavior.”

          • Jonathan Graham

            Or it’s criminal and civil actions brought against them,

            What we are talking about is taking drugs off the market. Of that list only one has been removed from the market: Vioxx. The problem there was again discovered due to researchers and removed as a result of the APPROVe study.

          • Um…yes, Big money was at stake, Ron.

            Explain how the UK health system is funded, would you?

          • AutismDadd

            Both MERCK (synonymous with consumer death) and GlaxoSmithKline made MMR in those days and the GSK MMR was rejected by Canada over safety issues. Britain was informed by Canadian Health authorities, and they actually brought it to Britain, but GSK is entrenched in Britain, and we know former Brian Deer employer James Murdoch was appointed to the board of GSK AFTER Wakefield’s bogus conviction. GSK and MERCK (synonymous with consumer death) were financial supporters of the British Medical Journal which is operated by the British General Medical Council. Brian Deer worked for the BMJ at the time of Wakefield’s trial. So basically we see one big happy family with Deer basically working for the MMR makers.

          • disqus_k3oycamN0W

            Looks like Wakefield now understands how horrible and ineffective vaccines are, along with growing number of parents.

          • Leslie

            In addition to your quotes from Dr John, this is a direct quote from Dr. Horton, Editor in Chief of The Lancet:

            “The case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue. Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance, science has taken a turn towards darkness. As one participant put it, “poor methods get results”…The apparent endemicity of bad research behaviour is alarming. In their quest for telling a compelling story, scientists too often sculpt data to fit their preferred theory of the world. Or they retrofit hypotheses to fit their data. Journal editors deserve their fair share of criticism too. We aid and abet the worst behaviours. Our acquiescence to the impact factor fuels an unhealthy competition to win a place in a select few journals. Our love of “significance” pollutes the literature with many a statistical fairy-tale. We reject important confirmations. Journals are not the only miscreants. Universities are in a perpetual struggle for money and talent, endpoints that foster reductive metrics, such as high-impact publication. National assessment procedures, such as the Research Excellence Framework, incentivise bad practices.”

          • Mike Stevens

            “much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue.
            Afflicted by studies with small sample sizes, tiny effects, invalid
            exploratory analyses, and flagrant conflicts of interest, together with
            an obsession for pursuing fashionable trends of dubious importance”

            This could describe Wakefield’s Lancet study in a nutshell. [Only 12 patients, no demonstrable effect, an invalid hypothesis, fatal conflicts of interest, and a narcissist pursuing some trend for blaming vaccines.]
            No wonder Horton lost his rag about the study.

          • Apparently the journal took Horton’s admonition to heart and applied it against Horton.

          • Leslie

            That response would only make sense if the Organic Industry were paying off politicians to make their products mandatory for education and daycare (Calif SB277), working/volunteering in preschools and daycare (Calif AB792), and working in healthcare (mandatory flu vaccines). The manipulation of clinical studies by Big Pharma combined with mandating their products (vaccines) is what makes this corruption so egregiously sinister.

          • Leslie

            SB277 is simply part of the “Boiling Frog Scenario”. The goal in the US is Healthy People 2020 agenda, in which 90% of the population is vaccinated, cradle to grave, according to the CDC schedule. And unlike pharmaceuticals Big Pharma won’t be liable for adverse reactions. We, the taxpayers, pay a surcharge per vaccine for adverse reactions (up to $250k) only IF the person can sustain the onerous process of proving it.

            Vaccines are the fastest growing revenue source for Big Pharma.

          • somitcw

            Does the $47,010,080 cost to assault 7% of California children under the age of five include the potential cost of needing to care for each damaged person for decades?
            .
            Allopathy really made a killing with SB277.
            It will increase income by billions of U.S. dollars income over the victim’s lifetimes.
            Even the undertakers might make a few pennies off of SB277

          • You need to prove that damaged people actually exist in the way you’re saying they do first.

          • somitcw

            You might be right?
            No damaged people exist in the U.S.A.?
            The over 3 million people now with peanut allergies just vanished?
            Asthma just ended?
            Autism just ended? Ignore the truth about the 2004 CDC study.
            SIDS stopped? Ignore the Tripedia insert for SIDS and autism.
            allopathy just went bankrupt because there is noone that they damaged to charge to care for.
            Severe repeated earaches that needed tubes inserted just had all of the tubes drop out?
            Schools don’t need classrooms for the learning disabled anymore?
            Even the constant stimming has stopped?
            .
            I do really wish that you were right.
            Unfortunately, we still have a damaged generation due to allopathy’s greed including non-therapeutic vaccines.

          • Ron Roy

            Which drug company created that meme?

          • First, you have to establish that it was created by a drug company at all.

          • somitcw

            You asked if “damaged people actually exist”.
            My answer made it clear that they do.
            What more do you want, me to lie to agree with you?
            I had no reason to help you prove a dishonest point.
            .
            To be clear, while I would prefer that allopathy did not have a fiduciary obligation to damage people, that is not the reality that we live in. Allopathy must generate income.
            Damaged people do exist. Hundreds of thousands of people die in the U.S. from adverse reactions to dope, allopathic sales-droids errors, and both direct and indirect hospital acquired infections.
            Over a-half of U.S. children suffered from one or more side-effects from non-therapeutic vaccines.
            You are welcome to look all up.
            You may want to start at the FDA’s adverse reaction web site.
            Its statistics show that using FDA “approved” dope in an FDA “approved” manner causes over a hundred thousand deaths per year in the U.S.

          • somitcw

            Notice the double quote marks in my post.
            That was an exact quote from your post.
            Why not go back and change your post?
            No reason for you to get honest all of the sudden.
            Your post of:
            “You need to prove that damaged people actually exist in the way you’re saying they do first.”
            is just too easy to respond to.
            .
            The people are damaged no matter what you dream that I said and I don’t want to have anything to do with your dreams.
            .
            If you can’t see all of the damaged people,
            you must not get out much or you might not get out at all?
            If you are locked inside, try reading from the FDA web site that I already mentioned or reading from the CDC website.
            They try to but do not cover up everything.
            Also, search for the CDC whistleblower information on the Internet.
            If poor reading skills, try watching videos.
            Vaxxed is one of dozens that are available.
            .
            No lack of truthful information available if you really wanted to read or watch it.
            Don’t blame me on your lack of information or your wish to not gain any truthful information. Not my issue.

          • No, it was a quote from the middle of the sentence. That’s called quote mining.

          • somitcw

            I both quoted the relevant parts of the sentence that I was responding to and in a latter post included the non-relevant parts for your entire post. Here they are again:
            “damaged people actually exist”.
            “You need to prove that damaged people actually exist in the way you’re saying they do first.”
            .
            Do you need them a third time so you can study it enough to know what you posted:
            “damaged people actually exist”.
            “You need to prove that damaged people actually exist in the way you’re saying they do first.”
            .
            Call it quote mining if you like but the short and long version of your post was:
            “damaged people actually exist”.
            “You need to prove that damaged people actually exist in the way you’re saying they do first.”
            .
            If you need more copies, just ask but I don’t believe anything in your post is relevant to the article. No merit whatsoever.

          • No, the whole sentence was relevant.

            IN THE WAY THAT YOU’RE SAYING THEY DO.

            No difference in rates with vaccinated vs unvaccinated children with autism = obvious vaccines don’t cause autism. As for SIDs….vaccinated babies have SIDs.

            It’s quote-mining regardless of whether you call it fiehwoi or quote-mining.

            Of course Autistic children exist. Of course babies with SIDs on their death certificate exist. Of course vaccine-injured children exist. Of course they are all important. They’re just three separate groups is all.

          • No, the fact that you ARE LYING to me is the problem. Stop pretending that things that aren’t vaccine related are. Adverse events are not side effects.

          • somitcw

            Try searching Activist post for
            vaccine-maker-admits-on-fda-website-dtap-vaccine-causes-autism
            or just read the Tripedia non-therapeutic vaccine package insert that includes reports on autism, SIDS, and many others..
            The constant reports of damage are one reason why DTP, DPT, DTaP, and TDaP non-therapeutic vaccines keep changing names.
            The non-therapeutic vaccine package inserts also warn against assaulting women of child-bearing age.
            Brazil didn’t assault pregnant women with TDaP until eight months before their supposed microcephaly outbreak. Of course even with their supposed outbreak, they have only a fraction of the microcephaly that the U.S. has. We assault more.

          • I’ve read the package inserts. Vaccinated babies have less SIDs per the package insert.

            All of those vaccines you listed are different with the possible exception of DTP/DPT.
            Prophylaxis =/= Therapeutic – hint: they aren’t supposed to be therapeutic.

            But hang on…don’t Big Pharma and the government lie about everything and now you want me to read the insert written by…Big Pharma and regulated by…the government?

            Here is a REAL vaers report. Do you think this child was vaccine-injured?

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fcd627758dec4aab7b05e97c7f58fd9154199196fa45879d21761f2de1c15435.jpg

          • somitcw

            No one can read your chart or whatever but to be assaulted with a non-therapeutic vaccine and four days later bleeding at weird places and walking so poorly that the person fell over a full bathtub,
            It sounds like something perfect to be added to VAERS.
            .
            The non-therapeutic Tripedia vaccine packet insert that you have trouble reading says:
            “Adverse events reported during post-approval use of Tripedia vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS,
            anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, autism, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence
            and apnea. Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting. Because these events are
            reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to
            establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine.2 ”
            .
            Note that people reported both SIDS, autism, and other nasty stuff.
            I am certain that other injuries like birth defects are not reported but should have been.

          • “. Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting. Because these events are
            reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to
            establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine”

            Explain this sentence in your own world.

          • Those are still claims….

          • AutismDadd

            So did Dumb Dumb finally get that that name wasn’t a good idea? Now has the nerve to use the word MERITS in its name? Oh look a graph. AMAZING!

          • somitcw

            “Have you watched Lost in Lacuna yet”.
            .
            I can’t find a copy of “Lost in Lacuna” yet but found a reference that it was just about even more allopathic crimes to make a buck.
            .
            Would you care to summarize?
            Who were the people that allopathy was harming and how much income did allopathy make at the time of the crime and later because of the damage? Please feel free to round the amounts to even billions of U.S. dollars.
            Please include how many people the allopathic killing machine killed per year.

          • Can you point me to the reference?

            And I misspelt that, I apologise. It should have been “lost in Lacuna.”

            Why do you assume this has anything to do with allopathy?

          • somitcw

            Well you misspelt it again. Weird mental defect.
            Perhaps you should have allopathy have you institutionalized.
            .
            It is allopathy that harms and kills people for profit.
            A few examples:
            Non-therapeutic vaccines for the damage that they cause.
            Chemo.
            Knife surgery when laparoscopic surgery would cause less harm.
            Hysterectomies for nothing.
            Some hospitals only do cesarean sections. Brazil is famous for it.
            Locking people up if they don’t like someone’s I.Q. or politics or
            spelling as poor as yours.
            Hundreds of other examples could be listed.
            Your mis-spelt movie is no different.

          • Those are assertions.

            You do understand that there are other countries in the world.

          • AutismDadd

            Its not fraud exactly, its medical consensus that agrees vaccination is the best tool. It accepts the collateral damage because as we are told, there are not many victims. Well if you eliminate victims with cut off dates and narrow definitions or with denial, sure there seems to be less victims.

          • AutismDadd

            If mainstream medicine didn’t have such a terrible reputation, alternative medicine wouldn’t exist.

          • A belief. Not evidence.

          • “Beliefs.” Exactly, Ron.

          • Ron Roy

            Beliefs that were confirmed.

        • disqus_k3oycamN0W

          The trolls on display, upvoting crazy Gorski. And they just flopped results from bad to good. I wonder did all this scienceblog shills negotiated vaccine exemptions for themselves as a job benefit (because they know how profusely they are lying for filthy vaccines)

      • Ahh… $cience, that’ll shut me up, lol!

        • All you have to do is prove it.

        • Al Mather

          Maybe if I posted a doctor’s forum discussion on vaccines… cuz you sure got quiet about attitude indicators when I posted the pilots discussion ….

          • PILOTS ARE ALL PAID OFF BY NASA!!!

          • Gary

            So what about the ones who believe the Earth is flat? NASA not paying ’em enough? Is this also the reason NASA’s shills are so inept?

          • Al Mather

            There are none …. only fools who believe conspirotard youtube videos with anonymous idiots claiming to be airline pilots.
            Got any names???

          • Gary

            Just go to the FlatEarthSociety website, Al. There are several who claim to be pilots. Sure, its a shill site, so you can’t believe everything you read there, but within every shill there is an element of truth. You would know this firsthand.

          • Al Mather

            Riiight…and I’m sure they give their names & credentials and everything…Lol!

            ” Sure, its a shill site, so you can’t believe everything you read there, but within every shill there is an element of truth. ”

            Gary ..I’m not sure what know about “shills’ … you flat earthers apply the word so broadly… somebody who is paid by some entity to promote an idea or product, someone who disagrees with your beliefs, someone whose beliefs do not align with yours, someone who debates you… someone employed by the CIA,or the Masons, or Jews, or Big Pharma, or Globalist Zionists… YOU have accused me and others of all these and more… You seem to be VERY aware of every aspect of “shill” activity.. the pay.. the moral corruption of it… and now you tell me that Flat earth sites are also “shill” … Golly!

            Gary… try not to live up to what the rational world thinks of Flat Earthers.

          • Gary

            Al. We’ve been through this before. I’d prefer to be right. You’d prefer to be popular. Hence you’re acceptance of what is popular, over what is correct.

          • Al Mather

            You wouldn’t have to constantly lie,dodge,deflect, and run from honest exchange…. If you actually believed that.

          • Gary

            You are the liar, the dodger, the deflecter and the runner from honest exchange. But anyone can see that by reading our histories.

          • Al Mather

            People should absolutely read the conversations and comments. They pretty much always end with me chasing you with direct questions that you dodge and deflect… till you cry shill …and run away. I can point to dozens of examples should the reader like highlights!

          • Gary

            For the examples you cite, the reader would find I demonstrated my position time and again with you denying, until I finally had to go to work, and you could keep getting paid shilling for a living. 🙂

            You’re a denier, Al. A mirage claimer. A coincidence theorist. You’re good for a laugh, but not believable.

          • Al Mather

            The reader will see you ducking logical and practical questions and realities that demonstrate the folly and delusion of Flat Earth…and you dodge and deflect the till it becomes obvious you are trapped in your stupidity…then you disappear..
            If you HAD intelligent answers to the folly of your FE map..flight times that disprove FE, axial stars, why you can’t demonstrate something obscured brought back over the curve with a zoom…and all the others.. You could always answer the next day.. instead of deflecting and running.
            As the reader would witness by reading… which I hope they do.

          • If you HAD intelligent answers to the folly of your FE map

            FE maps are the most accurate our there which is why all government aviation agencies use them as well as all international nautical agencies, shillboy.

            flight times that disprove FE

            International flight times are controlled by NASA because…. USA space agencies are totally the logical choice to control the flight times of all air traffic in the southern “hemisphere,” right? lolol MAKES TOTAL SENSE!

            axial stars

            There’s only one axial star, Polaris, the other one is a counter rotation, not an axial star and I’ve proven that already, anti-crepuscular rays prove it… you must have forgotten? lol, that must be it because you would never lie, amirite?

            why you can’t demonstrate something obscured brought back over the curve with a zoom

            Hey, dippy, you do know there’s zoom videos all over youtube, right? May wanna rethink that one, lol, or just plow straight ahead with global confidence that it’s a ball even though you can bring objects completely out of view right back in up close with powerful zooms, lol, which you just typed you couldn’t do… hehehe – classic shillery right there folks, you should have worked for her campaign! You’d fit right in! Say, you a pizza lover too? 🙂

          • Al Mather

            This us what I mean by sad… now you’re just spewing conspirotard stupidity… of course Flat earth maps aren’t used… prove it.

            Flight times “are controlled”???? By NASA????What the fack is that supposed to mean???? They are what they are and they are confirmed and logged by the thousands daily. Got any proof of that chunk of dumb???

            Show me ONE video of something OBSCURED Brought back with a zoom… can’t happen.. so you can’t provide .LOL!

            Ahhh the shill gambit… the pussiest of all the gambits…. sad buddy…pathetic and saf.

          • Awww… somebody can’t lose gracefully. You’re paid to do this and you can’t beat me at it, how sad is THAT? You can keep denying all you want, you just make it obvious to even the low info people when you do that so better hope they don’t read it. You can bring in as many sock puppets as you want too, won’t matter, they’re figuring it out faster than I thought they would.

          • Al Mather

            Not one answer…..but you can whine…”Waaahhh wahhhh….. Everybody’s a shill ..and they’re mean..and they’re all picking on me…waaaahhh waaaaahh….shill! Shills! SHILLS!” ” …. Please don’t pay attention to how they’re spanking me….they’re SHILLS!!!!!!!”

            Talk about can’t lose gracefully. Lol!

            You are the definition of a pathetic sore loser dude.. Tsk…tsk…tsk.

          • You will always do this when you’ve been beaten, hehehee, you did this last time when I spanked you so bad you had to lie about a video and say it was a fish eyed lens and anyone could see it was a wide angle lens… (the little piggie weather balloon video on youtube if anyone reading is interested, this shill tries to say it’s a fish eyed lens video because he lost an argument to me. Fish eyed lens videos do NOT record flat horizon lines because they CAN’T but that didn’t stop his shillin’, lol, oh nooo…. he shilled to the end and even past it on that one, lol) and this time around you are trying to argue that precise, scientific instruments are lying, lolol, doesn’t get any more desperate than that but hey, your shill friends agree with you so you must be right 😉

          • Al Mather

            “Wwwaaaaahhhh….SHILLS!!!!…..waaahhhh wahhhhh!

            And there it is folks… for all you people who have been reading this Flat earth nonsense from these morons…. When cornered with logic.. asked a question that they can’t answer…or asked for proof of any sort to back their cult of stupidity… they revert to babble ,deflection…and the pussiest of all the gambits…the shill gambit.

            Sad.

          • Gyroscopes = proof of flat earth, you = just lost a debate but won’t admit it, lol!

            Oh, and…. yes, you’re a paid shill that just lost, hahaha, you get PAID to do this and are failing at it, hehehe!

          • Al Mather

            Attitude indicators ….NOT ….perfect gyroscopes.

            https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pilotsofamerica.co%3A9zlJC7bPvzucd2U8lLSjRN_Uyaw

            http://disq.us/url?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avweb.com%2Fnews%2Favio%3AeMHE5RAuir4-kPydQTKK1NIma50

            YOU lose.

            No one would pay anyone to debate a delusional idiot like you …but since it’s the only claim you can make to try to cling to a morsel of manhood… go ahead Roger.

            “WWAAAAAAHHHHH WAAAAAHHHHH……. SHILLS !!!!!SHILLS!!!!!!…

            Poor little conspirotard… you tried SO hard…Lol.

          • Gary

            Its Not Paranoia demonstrated a zoom video to him a few weeks back bringing a boat into view that was invisible on the horizon, and he plain out denied it.

            I guess its to be expected – if he accepts any of the proof he is presented with, the shekels will stop.

          • Al Mather

            Nothing OBSCURED…. you fools keep claiming zoom will bring back OBSCURED hulls, mountains,buildings….
            Everyone understands that zooms bring small things from far away into view…but your claims of something OBSCURED coming back into view with a zoom SHOULD be easy to demonstrate …if it was true…but it’s just another Flat Earth BS “proof” that you idiots can’t provide..
            As always with you Gary… the lie is there …you just need to look.

          • Gary

            There is no curvature, Al. 🙂

          • Al Mather

            Oh that’s right!

            It’s that “magic flat earth ” perspective that makes the ships and buildings sink into the horizon from the bottom up …..Right?…Lol

            I guess it’s just a matter of all flat earthers being such shitferbrains losers …that none of them can afford a camera with a zoom to prove it makes the bottoms of the ships return to view. 🙂

            Otherwise you’d show me …boy oh boy.

          • Mike Stevens

            When you are sailing round the edge of this flat earth, what do you see when you look out either side of the boat?

          • Gary

            The horizon? I trust you take the time to come out of your mom’s basement more than Al does.

          • Mike Stevens

            You see a horizon?
            So that means the “edge” of your flat earth must have a thickness of at least 50-100 miles.
            So the earth isn’t flat, but a cylinder? Is that what you are saying?

            And what do you see out either side if you sail along an interface between the side of the cylinder and the flat top?

          • shay simmons

            It’s turtles, all the way down.

          • Al Mather

            From what Gary has explained to me in the past…

            You would see the military forces from all the Govts of the world. They are all secretly controlled by masonic Jews. They patrol the southern edge of the earth…which by the way he says is approximately 78,000 miles in circumference…& every single person who ever has sailed around or mapped Antarctica has actually been a Masonic Jew who then lied about the distances traveled. And no one has ever really been allowed to go there…. except of course… secretly evil lying masonic Jews…

            Correct me if I left anything out, Gar.

          • Gary

            You left out the part where you claim that all gyroscopes in all planes are lying, for starters. 🙂

          • Al Mather

            No..no..Aviation Gyroscopes (attitude indicators) don’t lie, Gary.

            Flat Earthers lie ABOUT gyroscopes….You’re right I did leave that out!

            Thanks!

            https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/my-gyroscope-says-the-world-is-flat.90561/

          • Gary

            Okay. So you finally admit Earth is flat? I’m glad Я0llyJ0g3r finally managed to convince you that gyroscopes don’t lie, and that as they remain level as the plane travels level above the Earth’s surface, this proves beyond shadow of a doubt the Earth is not a ball. 🙂

          • Al Mather

            Your reading and comprehension issue rears it’s empty head
            with me… as it has with Mike, Ken S. and Jonathan…tsk…tsk…tsk..

            No Я0llyJ0g3r is the lying flat earther (redundant) referenced….

            Actually …as the link I provided … (Pilots addressing the abject stupidity of the flat earth “attitude indicator proof”… )

            https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pilotsofamerica.com%2Fcommunity%2Fthreads%2Fmy-gyroscope-says-the-world-is-flat.90561%2F%3AE5OFt9AzFsNaMZBcrA4jpVZVWng&cuid=2620591

            explains…planes DO NOT use perfect gyroscopes as attitude indicators..and the ones they DO use are designed with mechanisms to constantly realign for the ever changing angle of the center of gravity.

          • Gary

            So that’s your expanation? Imperfect gyoscopes? Lol. I knew it would be good.

            I guess the only ones with access to the “perfect gyroscopes” to measure the Earth’s curvature are those pesky Masons again?

            Where can the uninitiated get hold of such accurate tools? Oh wait, we can’t, we just have to take the word of the Masons for it? Lol. 🙂

          • Al Mather

            Again the reading comprehension thing, Gar… focus..

            It’s not MY explanation.. It’s those pesky Masonic JEW pilots explaining it…as they have a good laugh at the stupidity of “flat earth” conspirotards..

            .. Oh yes…and ALSO those evil Masonic Jew engineers in the aviation industry…

            http://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/16376/how-are-attitude-indicators-kept-accurate

            http://www.avweb.com/news/avionics/183240-1.html

            http://www.pilotfriend.com/training/flight_training/fxd_wing/attitude.htm

          • That’s what he does, he just denies it’s there when he’s cornered with evidence. I’m not near done with him with the gyroscopes, yet, I am forcing him to dig himself a little deeper first 🙂

          • Gary

            Lol. I’ll be sure to mention gyroscopes every time he pops his little shill-head up.

          • Mike Stevens

            Say Gary, when you sail around the world “on its edge”, can you tell us how thick this edge is?

            Does it have a width, or thickness, like a coin?
            Does that have a value in metres, or kilometres?

          • Gary

            You don’t need to go to the moon to know its there, Mike.

            You don’t need to be a mathematician to understand that lighthouses can be seen beyond where they could be seen from, were the Earth a ball. Either the Earth is flat, or light doesn’t travel straight. I find the former is more consistent with reality.

          • Mike Stevens

            I see you are a founder member of the newly merged societies, Gary.
            http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/12/anti-vaccine-organization-to-merge-with-flat-earth-society.html

          • Gary

            Lol. As I keep telling Al Blather, if the CIA did as good a job with their hoaxes as they do with their satire, we critical thinkers might have fallen for their lies a long time ago.

          • Mike Stevens

            Not the CIA, Gary, but the replilians.
            Please stop mixing up your conspiracies.

          • Gary

            Whatever, Mike. Just tell your bosses to put the same effort into their hoaxes as they put into their satire.

          • How do mirrors work?

          • Here’s a full explanation from a competent pilot:

          • WAKE UP!!!!!!

          • Nope. Appeal to authority won’t work.

          • lol, I left because I won the argument which anybody can read which means you lost and just because you keep shilling on about it doesn’t mean anything other than you’re a shill who won’t admit defeat.

            PS: I’m still right about attitude indicators no matter how much you try to shill I’m not 🙂

          • Al Mather

            Riiight… because what would pilots know about attitude indicators compared to a conspirotard idiot like you?… you were wrong … ridiculously wrong… the pilot forum link I provided more than fully explained how completely wrong you were …and you are too big of a pussy to admit it.. and now try to deflect from that spanking by sticking you fingers in your ears..stomping your feet whining and crying ..”shill!!!… wah…wah… I’m NOT WRONG… WAH..WAH!SHILL!!!SHILL!!!!!

            Pathetic.. at one point you provided entertaining debate.. you dodged and deflected and it was sporting… now you are just sad, dude.

          • MAYYBE… just MMMAAAYYBBEEEE you’re cherry picking pilots, eh shill? You would NEVER do that though, would ya? SHILLBOY?

            PS: attitude indicators DO prove the earth flat! Tough shit if that evaporates your stupid globe theory… get over it, it never made any sense anyway.

            **I didn’t even go into the details of attitude indicators because your shilling was really bad and oh so obvious on that one… hehehe… sharpen up, shillboy, you’re slipping and I’m mopping the floor with you!

            You even needed globetard shill reinforcements because you were getting spanked, lol, desperate much? Who’s sad? lolol

          • Al Mather

            It’s a pilots forum moron… how could I be cherry picking?

            https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/my-gyroscope-says-the-world-is-flat.90561/

            And an aviation site

            They completely explain in detail how attitude indicators are made …how they function.. how they adjust for recession… YOU.. are just wrong.. and you have nothing to counter how embarrassingly wrong you were..except frantic childish deflection…
            YOU are sad

          • Gary

            Ah, R0llyJ0g3r, if ever you get banned for unapproved thoughts, please let me know where you move on to. I do enjoy you spanking Al Mather king shill, ‘though he will never admit to all the spankings he’s had.

            Very funny that he’s enlisted a whole bunch of his shill comrades to help him. 🙂

          • Al Mather
          • Al Mather

            It’s a pilots forum moron… how could I be cherry picking?

            https://www.pilotsofamerica.co

            Peek in …as pilots sit around talking about what frikken dipshits flat earthers are for coming up with this stupid attitude indicator meme as some “proof” of flat earth….what could be better?

            http://www.avweb.com/news/avio

            They completely explain in detail how attitude indicators are made …how they function.. how they adjust for precession…

            “The only really tricky part of the attitude indicator is its erecting mechanism. When power (vacuum) is first applied to the instrument, the mechanism quickly erects the gyro spindle to plumb-vertical in order to align the artificial horizon with the natural horizon. In flight, the erecting mechanism continually compensates the gyro for precession errors in order to keep it aligned throughout the course of a long flight.”

            YOU.. are just WRONG.. and you have NOTHING to counter how embarrassingly WRONG you were…..except this frantic childish deflection..and your PUSSY shill whines… Waaahh waaaahhh!

            YOU are sad

          • Hey shill, I didn’t need a bunch of shills on here to defend my position now did I? Whose sad again? Who needs reinforcements because they’re losing the narrative? hehehe

            Gyroscopes such as attitude indicators prove the earth is flat. The reason we can take our seat belts off and walk around on a commercial airplane after it reaches cruising altitude is because we are flying over a flat surface(ie. the plane is flying LEVEL), not a round ball where you would have to stay seated and strapped in; simple, common sense that alludes you and those dull enough to believe what you type.

            Go get some more Globe shills for this board, there’s not enough, the sheep may still find out it’s flat without more fake support! Bust out the sock puppets, dude!

          • Al Mather

            So… Can’t respond to the pilots forum,or aviation forum links I provided which completely explain the construction and function of flight indicators… So you’re going to triple down on whining and crying “shill”.

            Dude… Get some dignity… Your proof got crushed.
            Crushed ….. Squeezed …pressed …I drank all the stupid juice out of it …and pissed it back all over the rotting corpse of your argument .
            Nothing? No intelligent response to the wealth of reality based info from non conspirotard pilots and aviation folk explaining the workings of Attitude Indicators?…. I didn’t think so.
            Just more whiney …totally pussy… “shill” accusations….. Tsk…tsk…tsk

          • LOL, you can’t figure out when you’ve lost, can you? You can keep denying it but you still lost, you simply can’t get away from gyroscopes and you are thus cornered nd no amount of bullshit will get you out of it.

            You can post pilot forums all you want and it doesn’t matter as gyroscopes are precise, scientific instruments that maintain rigidity in space and have been in air crafts for almost 90 years now. They’ve been consistently indicating a flat earth all that time, too, so there goes your big ball that never existed….. poof!

          • Al Mather

            Only if you deny reality…

            Pilots and aviation outfits can’t deny reality like Fellate earth conspirotard morons…they need attitude indicators that adjust constantly to precession and the changing angle of the center of gravity.

            https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pilotsofamerica.co%2F%3AKdX1rq6rrVV2PPOi15pBTymWo0k

            http://disq.us/url?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.avweb.com%2Fnews%2Favionics%2F183240-1.html%3AyNN6B3Mj8hZiGXhr2F6khY3fDyM

            You can’t even begin to address the reality of what pilots are explaining as the mechanism and function of attitude indicators.. because you have nothing but childish lame denial left in your arsenal of stupidity.

            You have lost. This debate.. dignity…ANY credibility you had.

            Sad.

          • You mean pilots need attitude indicators that don’t flip upside down every twelve hours? I don’t understand why. Isn’t it more important to continually prove to the pilot that the Earth is round than to show the plane’s orientation?

          • lol, please keep this up, you have me laughing now!

        • kfunk937

          As it has never worked previously, prospects are dim.

          • $cience isn’t science, shill. With $cience the results are already known and the researcher’s challenge is to massage data, lie an obfuscate in order to meet the pre-determined results given to them before they even start their “study” while science is knowledge about or the actual study of the natural world based on facts learned through experiments and observation and that means that the researchers don’t actually know the results of the study they are about to perform… big difference there!

            PS: I don’t support or even amuse $cience because it’s bought and paid for garbage that requires online shills to prop up in the public consciousness… *ahem*

      • PK

        You confuse “unvaccinated” with “less vaccinated” when you cite this meme. Go read the research.


        • not inoculated with a vaccine to provide immunity against a disease.
          “pockets of unvaccinated children”

          • PK

            I’m glad you looked up what unvaccinated means in Webster’s dictionary. Now you can go read the research like I asked you to. That is where you will learn that these studies had no unvaxxed controls or the sample size of unvaxxed control was so small, it made the study statistically worthless.

          • I’ve already read the research, thanks.

            Of course, there should be a dose-response relationship with less-vaccinated.

            When it’s a specific vaccine that’s supposedly the problem, then all that matters is that particular relationship

            You have failed to account for the fact that totally unvaccinated would make rubbish controls since they likely have far different attitudes about medicine for example.

          • PK

            If you read the research, why did you attempt to sell it as having an unvaxxed control? And comparing vaxxed to vaxxed proves nothing. Only having an unvaxxed control will exonerate vaccines from causing autism.

          • Well, that’s easy, PK. I didn’t. I just showed you the difference in rates with the supposed problem vaccine.

            Nor did I try to sell it. I simply posted memes and asked you questions.

            ” Only having an unvaxxed control will exonerate vaccines from causing autism.”

            Actually, no, PK. We could go through the entire schedule one-by-one:

            These children have received everything except DTaP – no difference in rates in those vaccinated with DTaP versus those not vaccinated with that therefore DTap is not the cause of whatever.

            Same with MMR.

            And on and on.

            Eventually, you’ll learn one of two things:

            A)There’s a mismatch somewhere

            or

            B)There’s never a mismatch. And you have run out of vaccines to exonerate without ever finding a guilty verdict.

            If it’s just generally overwhelming then you should see a general trend emerge – less-vaccinated kids should have less immune issues.

            But okay, fine, hire someone yourself and do the study – just make sure you account for confounders.

            As for exonerating them from causing autism, you are the one responsible for proving they do in the first place since your claim, your burden of proof.

            And you know full well that unvaccinated children don’t have parents with the same attitudes towards healthcare.

          • PK

            Basic science. You need a control. It’s HS biology. And the burden of proof is on you to prove vaccines don’t cause autism. Unless of course you want to petition every state to allow personal belief exemptions to vaccines. If the govt. is going to force people to get a procedure, then it should be thoroughly vetted. And I’m unsure of your point on antivax parents. Are you saying they have adopted some lifestyle that lowers the risk for autism? Considering the medical/pharma line is that the cause is unknown, I would love to know how to reduce the risk of autism (if as you have asserted, vaccines aren’t the cause).

          • “And the burden of proof is on you to prove vaccines don’t cause autism” No, it’s not.

            And no-one is forcing.

            “Are you saying they have adopted some lifestyle that lowers the risk for autism? Considering the medical/pharma line is that the cause is unknown, I would love to know how to reduce the risk of autism (if as you have asserted, vaccines aren’t the cause).”

            I am saying that they have adopted a lifestyle that lowers the risk for an autistic child to be diagnosed as such. Avoid medicine and you avoid diagnosis, even for an autistic child.

            And dear, it’s not me asserting it. I’m just passing on what everyone has already proven.

            A control group, yes. A control group is supposed to match the experimental group as closely as possible except for the thing you’re studying. When you study MMR for example to see if it causes autism, you should have kids vaccinated-with-everything except MMR. Otherwise, you don’t know if it’s the MMR or the DTaP causing autism. Obviously.

            It’s not even HS science, I remember doing an experiment in middle school. You had plants who got everything except light, plants who got everything except water, plants who got everything except plant food.

            You didn’t have: Plant A got everything. Plant B got nothing. This was Yr 7 science.

          • PK

            What people want to know is if vaccines cause autism. Plant A gets vaccinated. Plant B doesn’t. And unlike your Nigerian study you were attempting to pass off as science, have more than 25 in the study.

          • PK

            No they don’t? That’s your response? And then another disingenuous meme? There is this thing called pubmed. You get to actually post the science. phew….That’s 20 minutes of my life I won’t get back. Good luck with your vaxxes. I’m out.

          • PK

            Pick the study with the unvaxxed control. You know, the one with more than 68 subjects in the control group. It’s the same one that wasn’t supported by the vax manufacturer and is conflict of interest free.

          • Helsinki Accords – learn about it.

            As for not supported by the Vax Manufacturer…how about Gadad et Al then?

          • PK

            I just looked up Gadad. How many monkeys in the control? Quit wasting my time. You are a troll. I’m out.

          • In other words, you don’t have an answer.

            As for control, irrelevant. It was simply an obvious not funded by the vaccine manufacturer.

            Plus trolls can be right too.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8aae14e40b27711f75034a0334a14b99d379d37cf2a0d6c722acb77c254c9447.jpg https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b10189cba1d0233b8673c4e17de972a26d5f7d1ec7992e184666c6a16a50f992.jpg

          • PK

            Except for the part where you are wrong, I am right, and I’ve had to correct you on everything you post. I suggest your retort be a meme with willy wonka or the fist pumping baby now. I am really through now.

          • Mike Stevens

            “I am right, and I’ve had to correct you on everything you post”

            Hmmmm…
            You suggested there were no studies with more than 25 subjects… DD pointed out you were wrong.

            You suggested there were no studies that were not funded by a vaccine manufacturer… DD cited one for you.

            To readers of the thread, it looks like DD is the one correcting you, and not the other way round.

          • PK

            That’s some funny stuff. Memes don’t prove anything. I asked for science. His response? A monkey study with 12 in the control and 79 in the study? Sheesh. Now you are both wasting my time.

          • No, you asked for a study not by the vaccine manufacturer.

            Safeminds is not a vaccine manufacturer.

          • PK

            PK: “Pick the study with the unvaxxed control. You know, the one with more than 68 subjects in the control group. It’s the same one that wasn’t supported by the vax manufacturer and is conflict of interest free.”

            The only thing you have been right about is your name. You make this too easy.

          • Your ignorance is not an answer.

            I told you about Helsinki Accords in response to that and I explained that we could exonerate them one-by-one. Then I cited a not done by the vaccine manufacturer.

            But fine. Go do the study.

          • Mike Stevens

            If you knew anything about science, you’d realise that the absolute number of study participants isn’t the crucial factor, as long as there are sufficient to generate meaningful, analysable data.

          • PK

            LOL. Autism affects 1:68 humans and you are trying to sell a study with only 12 monkeys in the unvaxxed control? Sorry. This study is junk and you know it. Or you should know it.

          • Mike Stevens

            And Wakefield’s study had how many in it again… 12 cases, and no controls?

          • PK

            You see, this is where you just have yourself away as a troll. His study was a case study on just those 12 children. It needed no controls. I can see there is no educating you.

          • Mike Stevens

            He should have performed what epidemiologists call a “case controlled study”.
            Do you wish to learn some epidemiology? I can recommend some useful texts if you do.

          • PK

            I recommend you read his study. A pHARMatroll lie is that his study claimed to prove a link between the MMR and autism. A case controlled study would have helped to prove that. But that wasn’t the point of his study.

          • Mike Stevens

            I am very familiar with his study.
            We all know the point of it… It was to manufacture “evidence” supporting the legal claim that MMR caused autism. Wakefraud was paid by the lawyers bringing the case on behalf of the plaintiffs, several of whom happened to be in the group of kids Wakers negligently investigated.

          • PK

            We all know the pHARMa playbook. Show a vax to be dangerous or ineffective, get “evidence” manufactured against you in order to discredit you.

          • Mike Stevens

            The one manufacturing “evidence” in this case was Wakefraud.
            http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7452

          • PK

            LOL Brian Deer as one of the papers references? C’mon! You gotta try harder than that. He’s the fraudster.

          • PK

            Speaking of what should be retracted, Walker-Smith’s appeal proves that paper a bunch of bunk. The half truth pro-vax pHARMatroll tactic of citing old out of data and papers gave you away.

          • Mike Stevens

            The BMJ is the one making the accusation.
            Can you refute it, or are you just going to spew silly ad homs?

          • PK

            Consider it refuted. It’s not current and is full of incorrect an unsupported accusations from Deer. You should try to stay up to date with the stuff you cite. Unless the truth isn’t a concern of yours.

          • Mike Stevens

            So who “refuted” it then?
            Can you provide a link to the scientific publication which does so?

          • PK

            Justice Mitting. Look it up. You get to read how Deer made it up.

          • Mike Stevens

            See my other post. Mitting mentions Deer exactly…zero times.
            You are confusing the charge of serious professional misconduct by the GMC against Walker Smith with the charge of research fraud by the BMJ against Wakefield.
            But facts don’t appear to matter in your Antivax universe, do they?

          • PK

            So all the allegations from Deer against Walker-Smith were found to not have merit. But you Pro-vax pHARMatrolls like to think any remaining allegations against Wakefield must be true? That’s really some funny stuff. Almost as much as your insulin is as important as vaxxes.

          • Mike Stevens

            Deer never made allegations against Walker Smith – the GMC did. Keep up.

            PS: Have you worked out a protocol to test vaxed versus unvaxed kids that doesn’t contravene all ethical principles and the Helsinki Declaration yet?

          • PK

            Tell me again how the bodies need for insulin is the same for vaccines?

          • Mike Stevens

            “Tell me again how the bodies [sic] need for insulin is the same for vaccines?”

            It’s not – that is yet another misunderstanding you arrived at because you can’t comprehend simple English.
            I asked for a protocol that compared vaxed against unvaxed controls that would be ethical and would conform to international standards such as the Helsinki declaration.
            You couldn’t provide one, so I suggested that producing a protocol for the use of insulin in diabetes versus no insulin might be an easier ask. Unfortunately it seems as though that was beyond you too.

          • PK

            I don’t comprehend simple English? Holy cow you are a pompous fool. My response was simple. No one needs to denied vaccines. There is a large population of people who have chosen not to be vaccinated. That gets around your “ethical dilemma.” If you learned to read, and spent the time to read what I wrote, you wouldn’t have wasted my time. ” Unfortunately it seems as though that was beyond you too.”

          • Mike Stevens

            As you should be aware, a preselected/self selected control group of unvaccinated individuals is not a suitable comparator. The only true control which would not give a biased outcome would be a prospectively selected, randomised, blinded group of unvaccinated kids.
            Of course that could never happen, for obvious reasons.
            Some researchers have looked at groups selected in the manner you indicate. Almost all of them have shown higher complication rates in the unvaxed, and no difference in neurodevelopmental outcomes (although some have shown better outcomes in the vaxed groups). But of course, antivaxers find “problems” with those studies. I am surprised you do not find the same, and suggest similar methodology.

            As regards the lack of comprehension, I have explained twice now about the suggested insulin study, and twice you have misconstrued it.

          • PK

            LOL. Studies like your 25 Nigerian kids? If it had shown the unvaxxed kids with a better outcomes you would have been screaming “junk science” Please.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Studies like your 25 Nigerian kids?”

            50 Nigerian kids, PK (more than 4 times the number in Wakefraud’s study). Including controls.
            And for measles, the unvaccinated were highly significantly less likely to get measles (p=0.000157). 3 unvaxed kids died of measles, one from tetanus.
            But you said they were “eaten by lions”, remember?
            Is there some reason why analyses like this which are highly statistically significant get the brush off from you, yet atrocious studies get your thumbs up?

            “If it had shown the unvaxxed kids with a better outcomes you would have been screaming “junk science””
            But it didn’t.
            And YOU are the one whining about “junk science” when the results of studies don’t go your way. Thanks for demonstrating how fickle and contrary you are.

          • PK

            25, 50. I know a bunch of people who never win money in Vagas, but do great in AC. That’s proof that the odds are better in AC.

          • PK

            And you keep trying to make more of Wakefield’s case study that didn’t need controls. boohooo. It certainly made it through peer review to get published without a “control” group. Why? Oh, it’s a freakin case study that doesn’t need controls. It took a bunch of made up lies by Deer to do a perfectly done and acceptable study to get pulled. Walker-Smith and Wakefield get harpooned. All the allegations against Walker-Smith are found to be lies but all the ones against Wakefield are true? That’s some funny stuff.

          • PK

            I would never even cite a study with 50 subjects from a 3rd world country from what 25 years ago? You should be ashamed for even trying to defend it. But I know how you trolls work.

          • Mike Stevens

            Odd.
            Antivaxers constantly cite what they call studies (they were little narratives really) from a couple of hundred years ago, if they think it will help their case.

            The age of a study is irrelevant really. If its methodology was sound, and it established without question significant findings, it will stand as a decent scientific publication. Watson and Crick’s work on DNA is twice as “old”… I guess you think we can dismiss the idea that it consists of a double stranded helix?

            While you are in the mood for responding, can you define a “troll” for me please? You seem very liberal with your accusation that others are trolls, and it would help to know your criteria for future reference.

          • PK
          • Mike Stevens

            I see you posted the wrong meme, PK. This was the one you meant to paste:
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d553ee28b7697195b58b344d016a6eb0ef8c96e0c1f0ae70d4a7c70219fa5164.jpg

          • PK

            Pretty funny meme. I may recycle this in my conversation with dumb dumb. And how again did you explain how ALL the allegations against Walker Smith were found to be without merit, yet all the ones against Wakefield are true? Let me guess. If I asked you about Thompson, you would instead talk about Wakefield?

          • Mike Stevens

            “And how again did you explain how ALL the allegations against Walker
            Smith were found to be without merit, yet all the ones against Wakefield
            are true?”

            Didn’t you pay any attention the first time I explained, PK?
            Clearly not. How many times do I have to repeat myself?
            The raft of charges was similar in the 2 cases only in relation to the charges that they did unnecessary research/experimentation on the children, and without proper ethical approval.
            Walker Smith’s conviction was overturned because he said he was duped by Wakefield into doing the investigations, and those he did he pleaded he was doing solely on clinical grounds.
            These excuses don’t apply to Wakefield, obviously.
            Or should I say it is obvious to most rational people, but you are really struggling with the concept.

            Now, could you define for me what you think a “troll” is, or is that going to be another question you keep evading? Go on, try a meme, I dare you.
            O

          • PK

            Bwahahaha. Please provide me with the legal docs where Walker Smith said he was “duped” by Wakefield.

          • Mike Stevens

            Certainly, as soon as you have shown me where Brian Deer’s name is mentioned in the GMC Wakefield transcripts.
            Fair is fair… I have asked you for the evidence for this claim of yours several times, and you still haven’t complied with my request.

          • PK

            Actually, don’t bother finding what I asked for. We both know you made it up.

          • Mike Stevens

            Hmmm… you caved in pretty spectacularly on that one, PK.

          • PK

            LOL. I’m still waiting for a real explanation from you about how insulin and vaccines are on equal footing for people to be healthy. Your “learn to read” comeback sounds like one from a 3rd grader. You lose.

          • Mike Stevens

            You are obtuse aren’t you?
            I never said insulin and vaccines were on an equal footing, I explained that to you at least twice.
            I can only conclude that you either can’t read properly, or like to lie and play the Strawman card.

          • PK

            You compared denying people of insulin and denying people of vaccines to be equal. You should read what you write. If you don’t get your facts straight, your pHARMa bosses are going to doc your pHARMatroll pay.

          • PK

            So you are sticking by your 30 year old study from a 3rd world country with a total of 50 subjects? My meme is spot on.

          • Mike Stevens

            That’s only one study, PK. There are many others.
            It’s still one study more than the number you’ve got.

          • PK

            I would love to see all the other vaxxed/unvaxxed studies you say you have. Not the vaxxed/slightly less vaxxed junk science you’ve been defending though. Post away.

          • PK

            The GMC’s inquiry came from Deer. Along with every co-author, Walker-Smith was guilty( really not guilty) by association with Wakefield. Keep up.

          • Mike Stevens

            Wakefield himself stated he wanted the GMC to examine his case. Deer was instrumental in exposing Wakefield’s dishonesty and unethical conduct, but the parameters of the GMC investigation were quite independent of him or any influence from him. I know it suits your narrative to find some bogeyman like him to blame, but there is no evidence or indication that he influenced the GMC inquiry.

            The case against Walker Smith and Murch was somewhat different to that against Wakefield. Walker Smith appealed and won a reprieve, because as I told you already, he threw Wakefield under a bus, explaining that he was misled into thinking he was doing only clinical work.
            I suggest you read the Wakefield judgement. It will fill you in on the relevant details, so you don’t have to get your misinformation from elsewhere.

          • PK

            I’ve read it. The claims against both were nearly identical. Maybe you should rely on another source besides Gorski and Dorit.

          • Mike Stevens

            No, the claims were not nearly identical. Perhaps you should check the GMC transcripts, and not listen to age of autism.

            Wakefield had charges of dishonesty relating to his cover up over the £50,000 legal aid board funding, of which he then failed to account for £25,000 which disappeared (this money was “double claimed”, both from the LAB and from the NHS.
            He also had charges of dishonesty confirmed because of his recruitment of the children, and he concealed his conflicts of interest from all his co-authors as well as the Lancet.
            He also showed callous disregard and serious breach of professional misconduct relating to the blood tests taken at the birthday party without due consent and process.
            He also was found to have committed ethical breaches relating to the 2 research protocols.

            None of the above applied to Walker Smith,mwhose offences related solely to his management of the cases. And as I say, he was exonerated because he said he had no idea he was doing a research study (as if), and that Wakefield had duped him by saying the children required admission and investigation on clinical grounds only.

            As I said before, please familiarise yourself with the charges before the GMC. It will save you embarrassment.

          • PK

            Justice Mitting unraveled the lies. Go learn a little about Deer. He’s the originator of “fake news.”

          • Mike Stevens

            Again, I’ll take that as a “No, I can’t refute the fraud claims”

            For info:
            1. Mitting looked at the case of Walker Smith, and overturned his conviction of serious professional misconduct. Mitting did so because Walker Smith persuaded Mitting that he (WS) had been misled by Wakefield into carrying out investigations on the Lancet 12, which WS “thought” Were for clinical need, but actually was research for Wakefield.

            2. The fraud claims against Wakefield are quite separate from the charges of serious professional misconduct. They followed later, and the BMJ verified them.

            I wish you’d learn a little about the details of these cases you discuss, rather than taking what the Antivax propaganda websites have spoon fed you at face value.

          • PK

            So all of Deer’s allegations against Walker-Smith were found to be without merit, but all the claims against Wakefield are true? BWAHAHA!

          • Mike Stevens

            I’ve told you already. The charges against them were formulated by the GMC, not Deer.
            If you can find his name anywhere in the GMC transcripts of the cases against them, I’ll give my usual (and never yet claimed) offer of $1,000 to a charity of your choice.
            You seem to have an obsession with this Deer fellow. There is help available for that you know.

          • PK

            Oh please, every pro-vax troll considers to be Deer the best pHARMajournalist errand boy ever. He fabricates the claims and then reports on it like it was “news”. Oh and my charity choice? Like Wakefield did with the money he rightfully earned as one of the worlds top Pediatric Gastroenterologists when he testified as an expert witness on behalf of the children harmed by the MMR, I would like you to donate it to the Royal Free Hospital. It’s funny how prov-vaxxers never mention Wakefield’s generosity.

          • Mike Stevens

            Where is Deer’s name in the GMC transcripts, PK?
            Can’t you even read and understand a simple sentence?

            I had to compose myself somewhat before responding – I was laughing too much at the idea that Wakefield was one of the “world’s top paediatric gastroenterologists”.
            You crack me up.

            I hadn’t realised Wakefield gave the $750,000 he blagged from the Legal Aid Board to charity. You umm, wouldn’t have some proof of that, would you?
            Can you explain how he bought a $4 million house in Texas, with a gym, pool and billiards room, while unemployed and as a delicensed doctor?

          • PK

            You didn’t know about Wakefield’s generosity? That doesn’t surprise me. I’ve read what you have written about him and you clearly know little about his story. Getting your information from Dorit or one of Gorski’s fake medicine sites only fills your head with lies and half truths. You really should try harder to get all the real facts. And it’s the nice house in Texas that’s your problem? Jealousy is and ugly emotion. Maybe you should ask your pHARMatroll bosses for a raise.

          • Mike Stevens

            And your proof that Wakefield gave $750,000 to the Royal Free Hospital being what exactly?
            Retrospective wishful thinking?

            And your proof that Deer had anything to do with formulating the GMC charges against Wakefield being what exactly? Argument by assertion?

            You know PK, I have been trying to get something from you for quite a number of posts now relating to all of your wild claims. That thing is called “evidence”. You should try and find some.

          • The Secret?
            Connections to the Sinaloa Cartel?
            Preying on the mommies he’s scared?
            Income from using the Vaxxed bus as an Uber taxi?
            Agreeing to being the puppet to the deep pocketed anti-vax alt-med grifters?

          • FallsAngel

            Too funny!

          • Mike Stevens

            Say I come up with the notion that insulin injections in Type 1 diabetics cause brain disease.
            Can you devise a research protocol that tests this hypothesis, using a control group of insulin dependent type 1 diabetics who get an inert placebo, but which still accords with the Helsinki Declaration?

          • PK

            Plenty of people lead long and healthy lives who have never been vaccinated. No one needs to be excluded from your “required to get or you will die” vaccines. They are already out there. Unless of course a study showing that the unvaccinated are healthier is not the kind of result pHARMa wants to get?

          • Where are the studies then? Actual studies, not surveys.

          • PK

            Exactly.

          • PK

            Really? Another disingenuous meme? What are you 12? I really am done this time.

          • I have already explained the constraints to you. If you want a better study, go and submit to an IRB board and hire the scientists and get on with it.

          • Mike Stevens

            So you can’t devise an ethical study on vaccines. Good that you realise that.

          • PK

            I’m saying your pHARMa bosses don’t want ask questions to look for answers they aren’t going to like.

          • Mike Stevens

            That doesn’t address the question I asked about whether such a study would be ethical or not. I guess we’ll just have to accept you haven’t a clue.

            Every time someone does a study on a drug, they risk getting an answer they might not like. Fortunately, science has a way of wheedling out the truth at the end of the day.

          • PK

            There are plenty of happily unvaxxed people. You don’t have to deny anyone.

          • Mike Stevens

            More non sequiturs.
            Just admit you can’t design an ethical protocol for my diabetes example, and move on.
            You’re just digging a deeper hole.

          • PK

            Big difference between insulin and vaccines. I’m on top of the hill, not in a hole.

          • Mike Stevens

            But since you failed to show how a controlled study could be safely and ethically conducted on vaccination, I threw you the easier bone of insulin, hoping you’d be able to work out an easier example.
            Oh well, you can’t.
            I’ll just swallow my disappointment, and learn from the experience, and not ask you to do something vaguely challenging again.

          • PK

            Now that is some funny stuff. Good riddance. Good luck with your vaxxes.

          • Mike Stevens

            And bye bye to you too, new disqus account antivax troll with a private comment history.

          • PK

            Seeya Mr. “thinks vaccines are as crucial for health as insulin.”

          • PK

            And good luck to you, Mr. “vaccines are as important as insulin for survival.” It’s tough to debate that kind of science knowledge.

          • It might help if you debate your opponent’s actual points and not strawmen.

          • PK

            LOL. Bad news for you pro-vaxxers today. RFK JR. gets to chair a commission on vaccine safety. It looks like you finally get the proof that vaccines cause autism that you have been asking for.

          • It’s stronger than the current evidence, right?

          • PK

            Pro-vaxxers all say there was only Wakefield’s study linking vaccines to autism (which ironically didn’t make that claim), when in reality there is plenty of evidence linking vaccines and their components to autism. With no one at the top protecting the myth of safe and effective vaccines, both the benefits and risks of vaccines can be told.

          • Great. Get on with it then.

          • shay simmons

            “when in reality there is plenty of evidence linking vaccines and their components to autism.”

            Citations needed.

            ” With no one at the top protecting the myth of safe and effective vaccines, both the benefits and risks of vaccines can be told.”

            Are you laboring under the misapprehension that the rest of the world is not bound by anything the CDC says or does?

          • PK

            Go on PubMed and do a search for aluminum adjuvant toxicity. That should keep you busy for a while.

          • shay simmons

            Burden of proof, PK. Learn it.

          • PK

            Lol. Don’t look up research that conflicts with your beliefs. You wouldn’t want to have to go to your safe place and cry.

          • shay simmons

            Your inability to back your claims up is noted.

          • PK

            Your inability to know how to look up research on PubMed is noted. I was guessing you didn’t even know what PubMed was. Thanks for the chuckle.

          • shay simmons

            You made the claim and then were not able to back it up. Thanks for being a typical antivaxxer.

          • PK

            Just because you are too stupid to look up how dangerous aluminum adjuvants are doesn’t make them safe.

          • shay simmons

            Just because you are unable to substantiate your claims with evidence, doesn’t shift the burden of proof to someone else.

          • PK

            In case your fingers don’t work, I plugged the phrase into PubMed for you. 423 results. Have fun reading! Unless you are going to claim “blindness” next. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=aluminum+adjuvant+toxicity

          • shay simmons

            I just read the abstract of the first paper, which does not, in fact, say anything about aluminum adjuvants being harmful.

            Dishonest and lazy.

          • PK

            Keep reading. Unless you are dishonest and lazy. From the second study ” In any event, the view that Alhydrogel® neurotoxicity obeys “the dose makes the poison” rule of classical chemical toxicity appears overly simplistic.”

          • shay simmons

            In mice.
            So you can’t be bothered to actually provide evidence, just do a PubMed dump?

          • PK

            You don’t like the mouse safety study? Why don’t you use your brain and find me 1 study in humans that shows how safe aluminum is. I’ll make it even easier for you. Use google to find me what crucial human biochemical reaction needs aluminum? Or what you could do is throw out a bunch of insults and pretend I didn’t just school you. You appear to be adept at that.

          • shay simmons

            I think I see your problem — when evaluating research, it’s not a question of like/dislike, but rather if the study provides evidence to support a claim.

          • shay simmons

            It is not my responsibility to go looking for evidence in support of your claim. These were the first ten papers on your list; if you are unable to come up with anything better, stop wasting my time.

            1. Study does not address aluminum adjuvant safety.
            2. Study is in mice, and the abstract makes three claims that are not supported by the evidence.
            3. Study does not address aluminum adjuvant safety.
            4. Study does not address aluminum adjuvant safety.
            5. Study does not address aluminum adjuvant safety.
            6. Study does not address aluminum adjuvant safety.
            7. Study states that there was no clinical evidence of systemic toxicity (animal study).
            8. Study does not address aluminum adjuvant safety.
            9. Study suggests that use of aluminum adjuvants may have additional benefits.
            10. Study lists a variety of aluminum exposure concerns and suggests that further study is warranted.

          • PK

            Since aluminum is a common adjuvant, I’m sure there are tons is studies showing how safe it is and how dosage amounts were calculated. Why don’t you find the proof that what we’ve been injecting into our children is safe.

          • shay simmons

            Why don’t you find the proof that what we’ve been injecting into our children is safe.

            Why can’t you find the proof that it’s unsafe?

          • PK

            Good luck with your vaccines. I’ve got a busy weekend ahead and can’t waste it debating a pharmatroll on the internet. Feel free to post one last time about how you won.

          • shay simmons
          • PK

            How many do you want? I’m guessing 1 more than I offer.

          • shay simmons

            I’d be happy with studies that you’ve actually read and analyzed, and can defend in a debate.

          • PK

            Lets’ talk about #4 on the list. It explains how aluminum, (a known neurotoxin) from vaccines crosses the BBB. right were it shouldn’t be. 422 to go.

          • shay simmons

            Can you please cite the paragraph in the study where it says that aluminum in vaccines crosses the BBB? A copy/paste will do.

            AS for 422 more — I’ve already addressed that.

          • PK

            High loading of aluminium oxyhydroxide in the cytoplasm of THP-1 cells without immediate cytotoxicity might predispose this form of aluminium adjuvant to its subsequent transport throughout the body including access to the brain.

          • shay simmons

            1. From the study…not the abstract. Have you read it?

            2. “High loading of aluminium oxyhydroxide in the cytoplasm of THP-1 cells without immediate cytotoxicity might predispose this form of aluminium adjuvant to its subsequent transport throughout the body including access to the brain” =/= “aluminum in vaccines crosses the BBB.”

          • PK
          • PK
          • shay simmons

            Before we dive into the cesspool that is any paper by Tomjlenovic, Shaw and Exley, are you admitting that this paper does not actually state that aluminum in vaccines crosses the blood brain barrier?

          • PK
          • shay simmons

            Great! another mouse study – and one that moreover, was retracted.

            http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0264410X16000165?via=sd&cc=y

            How about looking at research that actually studied almost one million people?

            http://www.bmj.com/content/347/bmj.f5906

          • PK
          • PK
          • PK
          • shay simmons
          • PK

            OOH YES Shay used a fake science blog to attack anyone critical of vaccines! Just like Sharyl Atkinson said you astroturfers would do in her TED talk! Right out of the old playbook.

          • PK

            It’s so much easier than posting your own science…because we both know you have none.

          • shay simmons

            I used a blog by a researcher with actual credentials to point out that the Delong study is bunk. How is that attacking anyone critical of vaccines?

            As for Sharyl Attkisson (you spelled it wrong)….http://crooksandliars.com/2015/01/sharyl-attkissons-hacked-computer-real-her

          • PK

            So you attack the journalist who questions the vaccine dogma? I’ll add hypocrite to your credentials. I know you like you pHARManews sources better. It’s ok though…. RFKJr. is on the brink of bringing down you cult soon.

          • shay simmons

            So any criticism = an attack. I didn’t know you were such a fragile flower.

          • PK

            pst scroll up. you do nothing but attack.

          • shay simmons

            You are a fragile flower. Perhaps you should stick to venues where everyone agrees with you? You won’t learn anything, but you’re feelings won’t get hurt.

          • PK

            BWAHAHAHA! It’s you pHARMatrolls who have been coming out of your safe place after SHillary’s defeat to try to “debunk” Trump, RFK and anyone critical of the vax. The next year is going to be awesome.

          • shay simmons

            Speaking of debunking — I notice you still haven’t answered the questions.

          • PK

            Bad news shay. I clicked on your name. All you do is criticize and demand “proof” from everyone, but you don’t offer anything of substance in return. I’m really busy convincing real people in the real world about the dangers of vaccines to deal with you and about 4 other people who appear to be responsible for 80% of the posts on this article. The 4 of you, orac, dorit and offit can post all you like. It’s not going to stop the anti-vax train that is about to plow into your cult of pro-vaccinology.

          • shay simmons

            I’m really busy convincing real people in the real world about the dangers of vaccines

            Kind of hard to do that when you can’t answer questions.

          • shay simmons

            I clicked on your name

            I meant to ask why your Disqus account is private. Are you hiding something?

          • FallsAngel

            Atkissoff, like Kennedy, probably hasn’t taken a science course since high school.

          • PK

            We should only trust people indebted to pHARMa. That’s a good rule.

          • FallsAngel

            No, that’s stupid. But Atkissoff is not a good source.

          • PK

            Totally! After all, she questions the dogma of vaccination. No one should ever question vaccination, or opiates or whether or not ships fall off the edge of the earth if they keep sailing east. It is anti-science to question science and we can’t have people just looking into subjects that are so clearly a matter of fact.

          • FallsAngel

            You’re right. Vaccine science is not up for question. Atkiss is too dumb to know that.

          • PK

            Don’t forget opiates and the flat earth too. Science is science and the science is settled! BWAHAHAHAHA!

          • PK

            Saw this today in the news and thought of all the pHARMatrolls on this news article. https://www.yahoo.com/news/pharma-backed-trial-more-likely-okay-drug-study-093313597.html

          • PK

            Orac? Really? BWAHAHAHA! KIng of pHARMatrolls.

          • shay simmons

            I see you make no attempt to address his criticisms. Just for starters, can you explain why DeLong combined autism and SLIs together as a determinant of autism rates in the first place?

          • JGC

            Oooooh, I know this one! Because her study wouldn’t have coughed up her preferred and predetermined conclusion if she had only used the numbers for actual autism, right?

          • shay simmons

            GIVE THAT MAN A CIGAR! Lumping autism together with an unrelated condition that’s almost four times as prevalent really makes your numbers look impressive.

          • Claims stand or fall on their own merits.

          • PK

            They do! For once we agree. Is that why your and your pHARMy are out to try to “debunk” RFK before he has the opportunity to disassemble your vaccine machine? This is going to be a great year!

          • PK

            I take offence…..a traffic offence!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I know you couldn’t resist a good meme. I thought you would have gone with willy wonka though.

          • Style over substance fallacy. Next.

          • PK

            You’ve just resorted to a meme! Thanks for helping me to prove my point.

          • Style over substance fallacy. Next.

          • PK
          • Strawman fallacy. Next.

          • Except, PK, I am not arguing that. I am merely arguing that meme form does not make it false. I.e. Not that memes make something true but that they are totally irrelevant to whether a certain claim is true or not.

          • This argument? It’s how scientific process works. If you can’t handle the heat and have to resort to namecalling instead of defending?

            Get out of the kitchen.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b10189cba1d0233b8673c4e17de972a26d5f7d1ec7992e184666c6a16a50f992.jpg

          • PK

            When you can’t beat’em you block’em. Nice Meme merit. I know you were itching to post one. Memes are so much easier than being right.

          • shay simmons

            They do

            Interesting statement, given that you have yet to support any of your claims.

          • Mike Stevens

            How is a blog by a scientist a “fake science blog”?
            Can you address any of the numerous valid points raised in the article?

          • PK

            ORac orac orac! BWAHAHAHA!

          • Mike Stevens

            I’ll take that as a “No, I can’t” then.

          • PK

            Let me guess, you will use some opinion piece from Mr. “a baby can handle 10k vaccines at once” Offit to back up your orac blog! pHARMa is on the chopping block and you trolling won’t change it! BWAHAHAHAA!

          • 655321

            Are any of those “numerous valid points” cited with science….?

          • Mike Stevens

            “Are any of those “numerous valid points” cited with science….?”

            I appreciate you need some help determining what is valid science and what is not, Herbie. I am happy to oblige.
            The answer is yes, the points are supported by scientific citations and opinion.

          • 655321

            Opinion no doubt. Do you fantasize about Herbie? This is the wrong forum to express those feelings.

          • Mike Stevens

            Herbie, the only fantasies I have about you involve a sharp stick.

          • 655321

            I bet. It must get frustrating for you being exposed for the sociopathic fool you are on a regular basis.

          • Mike Stevens

            Not as frustrating as your vacuous trolling must be for you.

          • 655321

            You just stole Ken S.’s derp trophy.

          • 655321

            Reported for threatening statement btw.

          • Mike Stevens

            You never could tell the difference between fantasy and reality, could you?
            But then, you are a chiropracter, and an antivaxer, so that’s logical.

          • 655321

            lol, wtf is a “chiropracter”? Fantasy posts like yours often are is what brings me here for entertainment value, but it’s not that surprising that someone who lies on line to cover for his conscience would resolve to threats when you have nothing else to say.

          • Mike Stevens

            Have back your Derp trophy.
            You’ve earned it.

          • 655321

            Calm down Mikey? Or are you still fantasizing about hurting people? Is that what you miss about practicing?

          • Mike Stevens

            Ouch! That one’s gonna hurt.

          • 655321

            At least he didn’t cite Mitkus…and pretend it was a relevant injected aluminum safety paper.

          • Mike Stevens

            Antivaxers often cite papers thinking they support their POV (or more like they deliberately lie about them supporting their POV), only for scrutiny to find they support the safety of vaccines… Like the Mitkus study, yes!

          • 655321

            Says the guy who cited an inappropriate safety paper for injected aluminum into newborns and infants. You prescribe yourself something to help you sleep at night? Its hard to imagine what kind of person would try to justify exposing newborns and infants to known neurotoxins, and actually make the effort to cite irrelevant papers while doing so.

          • Mike Stevens

            I cited Mitkus et al.
            Nothing inappropriate about that.
            What up, Herbie? Running out of troll material?

          • 655321

            Calling out vaccine pushing sociopaths who cite inappropriate safety studies is always fun. You’re actually even more entertaining, because you seem to believe your own BS.

          • 655321

            Says the former DOD troll that just cited an OPINION blog with the word science it.

          • Mike Stevens

            Repeating yourself as well, Herbie?
            I guess you’ve won the troll bingo!

          • 655321

            You seriously have mental issues. No joke.

          • What would be the equivalent dose for humans wrt to the mouse study?

          • PK

            What are the limits of Al exposure and what were the safety studies done to prove these limits?

          • Uhh….? Seriously, pubmed. Type your questions in.

          • PK

            You outdid yourself. If you can’t prove your point with real science, memes and now a YouTube video with dock puppets will convince me. Stephen Hawking and love to learn new things from sock puppet videos.

          • Dear, that wasn’t proving the point.

          • Has it finished yet?

          • PK

            It’s going to be a long year for pro-vaxxers, Frank DeStefano and Julie Gerberding.

          • I’m so glad you brought Destefano up – Destefano and Hooker were the ones who reanlyzed the data from William Thompson. You know, the supposedly destroyed data?

          • PK

            Go back to troll school. You got your cast of charactors mixed up.

          • PK

            Try again. You have your criminal scientists mixed up.

          • Can you link me to the court judgements where they were found guilty?

          • PK

            Can you name for me the right scientists and what they did? I’ll give you another shot.

          • You’re the one making the claim that they are criminal. Your claim, your burden of proof.

          • PK

            Wait for it. Indictments are on the way. Except for Thompson, his whistleblower status will keep him out of the slammer.

          • You have confused me – you said they were criminal. Therefore you must ALREADY have the judgements where they were found guilty.

            I again must ask you about the other countries in the world.

          • PK

            It’s like when pro-vaxxers claim that Wakefield is a criminal. Except the difference is that the evidence against DeStefano et al. hasn’t been allowed to be told yet.

          • If it’s like when Wakefield is a criminal, then you should at least be able to link to the GMC hearings. Got a link for that and the part where they were found guilty?

          • PK

            I’ve been looking for an arrest record for Wakefield? No luck. Criminals get arrested even in Britain. It looks as if he isn’t a criminal after all. Maybe other things pro-vaxxers say about him are untrue too?

          • PK

            If I were you merits, I think this is a great opportunity for some snarky memes. That would really convince me I was wrong.

          • Can you link to where pro-vaxxers say that Wakefield is a criminal? Remember you need at least two Remember that scientific fraud is not the same as criminal fraud in the U.K.

            And they don’t necessarily get arrested since speeding is a crime but speeding tickets are a thing.

            Still waiting for the link to the guilty-of-crime for those criminal scientists.

          • PK

            You attempt to prove pro-vaxxers haven’t called Wakefield a criminal then in one sentence. Then in the next sentence you infer that he is a criminal! You can’t have it both ways! BWAHAHAHA! Try a fist pumping baby meme next time.

          • PK

            Or that vaxxed vs unvaxxed meme which is anything but. It’s one of my favs.

          • 1)I did not attempt to prove anything. I asked you to back up YOUR CLAIM. I am confident you can do this since you made the claim or I wouldn’t have asked.

            2)Inferred is what you did.

            3)I am not responsible for your fertile imaginations and hallicunations as to text between the lines. That’s your problem.

            3a) I was simply addressing the criminal = jail equation and pointing out that not all criminals are jailed.

            Now, I must ask you AGAIN to a) link to the guilty judgements and b)whether you have read the Cedillo case yet.

            In other words which you would know had you simply READ the words:

            1)I haven’t seen people calling Wakefield criminal. If you have, show me where.
            2)Scientific fraud is not the same thing as criminal fraud in the U.K.
            3)In any case, not all criminals go to jail. For example, speeding people are generally just ticketed.
            4)Mentioning that not all criminals go to jail does not do anything to alter whether a specific person is a criminal or not.

            Seriously. Go back, read what I actually wrote.

          • PK

            People who speed are criminals? Please provide me with legal proof.

          • PK

            or a meme with Willy Wonka.

          • PK

            Thanks for backing me up! Do you even bother to read what you post? C’mon, you can do better. I know you can.

          • Yes. What’s an offence, PK?

          • PK

            Paul: “People who speed are criminals? Please provide me with legal proof.” Speeding makes you a criminal? Try a willy wonka meme. It may be more convincing.

          • Yes. You don’t have to commit a felony to be a criminal.

          • PK

            As you say but not common sense or the links you provided. Maybe a face palm meme will convince me.

          • Go read them properly.

            Pay attention to what an offense is and what a criminal is.

          • PK

            They have been read. Speeding is not a criminal offence.

          • Yes, it is.

          • Ron Roy

            I just ran this one by my son who’s a cop. He still laughing. Speeding is not a criminal offense. Accidents where a death occurred due to speeding is a different story.

          • PK

            FYI, the Jedi mind trick isn’t real.

          • PK

            Sorry Jedi master. A quick google search for speeding in the UK reveals “A Fixed Penalty Notice (FPN) can be used to deal with minor road traffic offences, but it is not a criminal conviction or a caution.” It looks like you don’t have the “force.”

          • Conviction doesn’t have to be a thing for it to be a crime.

          • PK

            How can you be guilty of a crime without being convicted? I tell you what, why don’t you quit the doublespeak “force” gibberish and find a source for your position. The ones say are proof don’t even say the word “speed” anywhere on the page.

          • Easy.

            If I commit the perfect murder and have never been caught, that doesn’t change the fact that I have actually done the crime.

            It’s a 2-part thing, PK.

          • PK

            Is speeding a criminal offence? This isn’t a philosophy question. It’s a legal one. I’m guessing your inability to find a link to prove you point is because speeding is not a criminal act.

          • Wrong. Already provided.

            However, if you need another example:

            http://www.wolverhampton.gov.uk/environment/fixed-penalty-notice

          • PK

            How do you think posting a 3rd source that never actually uses the word “speed” will convince anyone that speeding is a criminal act. ROTFL! Maybe you can find a meme with the fist pumping baby to convince me! BWAHAHAHA

          • What does the phrase “another example” mean?

            I was expecting you to read all three sources, actually.

            Source 1 [paraphrased]: A criminal is someone who commits an offence.

            Source 2 [paraphrased}: Speeding is an offense which is dealt with via a fixed penalty notice.

          • PK

            Sorry Jedi Knight, Saying it’s a criminal offence and paraphrasing (also known as you making it up) doesn’t make it a criminal offence. Try this. Type “is murder a criminal offence in the uk” or “is battery a criminal offence in the uk” and even “is arson a criminal offence in the uk.”
            What do you get? about a gazillion websites that actually say “Battery is a criminal offense.” BWAHAHAHAHA! You lose. Maybe a Captian Picard meme is what you need. You pro-vaxxers use those memes all the time when there is no proof of your opinion!

          • Go read them.

          • Paraphrasing, per Google Define.

            “express the meaning of (something written or spoken) using different words, especially to achieve greater clarity.”

            If you can’t understand such basic words as paraphrasing then what on earth makes you think you can understand a sentence like “Current data suggest that the theoretical capacity determined by diversity of antibody variable gene regions would allow for as many as 109 to 1011 different antibody specificities.” well enough to understand it is all wrong?

          • shay simmons

            I was expecting you to read all three sources, actually.

            Optimist.

          • PK

            This is a simple question. Give me a legal resource that answers the question. You’ve given me 2 websites that don’t address it.

          • Then you haven’t read them. Go back and try again.

          • PK

            I’m just a stupid anti-vaxxer who can’t read. Maybe you can help me out by cutting and pasting where it says that spring is a criminal offense. Or maybe you can find a meme? People love memes. BWAHAHA! Seriously, I’m moving on. I’ve got a lot on my plate and I can’t waste any more time with you. I think you should reply with a YouTube clip of Queen singing “we are the champions.” That well convince me of your intellectual superiority.

          • *Speeding.

            I don’t need to convince you – that was the whole point of the sockpuppet video. I’m not trying to convince you anyway.

          • JGC

            Sorry, but you’re incorrect.

            DeStefano was actually the primary author of the initial report Thompson contributed to which found no increased risk associated with vaccination.

            Brian Hooker was the one who attempted to ‘reanalyze’ the DeStefano data set to prove the study conclusions were wrong and there did in fact exist a vaccine-associated increase in risk of ASD’s. (Hooker, of course, failed spectacularly.)

          • Thank you for the correction, JGC. Don’t worry about apologising; I consider it a favour.

            While I got the names horribly mixed up…the supposedly-shredded data was still reanalyzed.

          • PK

            It’s going to be a long year for pro-vaxxers and criminal researchers like DeStefano and Greberding.

          • PK

            It’s going to be a long year for pro-vaxxers and criminal researchers like DeStefano and Gerberding.

          • JGC

            Not bad news for pro-vaxxers: bad news for everyone.

          • PK

            Everyone…at Merck and the CDC vaccine safety division.

          • JGC

            To the extent that the employees of Merck and the CDC as well as their children, etc., also rely on routine vaccination for protection from serious infectious diseases you’re correct, but if you’re suggesting that only they stand to suffer you’re wrong.

          • PK

            I’m sure if they were given the choice of autism and the measles, they would take the rash.

          • So your suggestion for a DOUBLE BLIND study is that we use people who know/CAN SEE their vaccination status? Want to try again?

          • PK

            Maybe our friend RFK Jr. can get the science done? If I were you, I would post some snarky comment claiming scientific superiority with a meme while you can. It won’t be long before those in power protecting vaccines are gone.

          • No, P.K.

            Double-blind studies where participants know which group they’re in is a logical impossibility.

          • PK

            It wouldn’t be double blind. So you start with groups who know their vax status. The thing about autism is that there is no placebo affect to make it go away. I’m sure when the entire vax industry melts down when they find out that the vax causes autism, some real science looking into vaccines will get done.

          • No, PK. Real science has already been done. You just don’t like the answers.

            There is no epidemic when you compare today-tomorrow, there is no difference in rates, there is no dose-response relationship.

          • PK

            You can keep repeating that as much as you like. It won’t make it true.

          • Won’t make it false either. Your ignorance of the constraints don’t make it something other than real science.

            Hired those independent scientists yet?

          • When is this going to happen, PK?

          • PK

            Hopefully before even more children regress into autism after getting vaccinated.

          • Have you read the Cedillo case yet?

          • PK

            I just got done reading the Hannah Polling case.

          • PK

            I’ve been busy reading the Hanna Polling case.

          • PK

            I’m right in the middle of the Hanna Polling case right now.

          • PK

            When the science fails, the snarky memes come out.

          • 3)Have you read the Cedillo case yet?

            And that meme is no difference to a diagram on a textbook really.

          • PK

            Cue snarky meme instead of science!

          • Logic.

          • PK

            There’s nothing like a snarky meme to prove you know science. Thanks for validating yourself.

          • PK

            Snarky memes are a valid replacement for science.

          • Maybe. Start a petition or something asking him to hire independent scientists – that would work.

          • PK

            I agree. Independent scientists would be the solution.

          • Indeed. And if you don’t trust the US government, there’s nothing stopping anyone from publishing in a different country’s journal.

          • PK

            Kinda like Thorson’s Danish study?

          • Make sure you get the kid for MMR for a start since it protects against autism via preventing CRS.

          • PK

            I was talking with my friend Bill. Bill Thompson over at the CDC. He said he’s done quite a bit of research that showed the MMR was directly related to an increase in autism. He told me he felt terrible about going along with lying about this and that I should definitely NOT vaccinate my kids with the MMR. He told me that “if anyone says different, tell them to pay attention in 2017. The lid is going to get blown off the myth of safe and effective vaccination.” I have to believe Bill over “Merits the doublespeaking meme publisher” who can’t find 1 link in all of the internet to prove that speeding in the UK is a criminal offence.

          • Claims stand or fall on their own merits.

            Explain other countries in the world.

            It’s 2017 now.

          • FallsAngel

            Snort, your friend Bill! Here’s what your buddy said about vaccines when he gained glory as a “whistleblower” by the anti-vax community:
            “I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and
            continue to save countless lives. I would never suggest that any
            parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious
            diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly
            outweighed by their individual and societal benefits.”

          • PK

            Nice cut and paste. I think you forgot to paste everything he said. For your benefit here are a few more:
            “I regret that my co-authors and I omitted statistically-significant information in our 2004 article published in the Journal of Pediatrics.”
            “That’s the deal . . ., that’s what I keep seeing again and again and again . . . where these senior people [at CDC] just do completely unethical, vile things and no one holds them accountable.”
            “I basically have stopped lying.”
            “So I have to deal with a few months of hell if all this becomes public, um, no big deal. I’m not having to deal with a child who is suffering day in and day out.”
            “The CDC has put the research ten years behind. Because the CDC has not been transparent, we’ve missed ten years of research because the CDC is so paralyzed right now by anything related to autism.”
            And he mentions you in this next quote “These drug companies and their promoters, they’re making such a big deal of these measles outbreaks. It’s like a never ending thing where the press loves to hype it and it scares people.”

          • FallsAngel

            Oh, honey, what a fool you are! Only the first quote is from Billy-boy’s letter. The rest, I guess, are part of the phone call records between your BFF and Brian Hooker “transcribed”by I forget who. No one has heard these calls except Bill, Hooker and the transcriber. Here’s a link to the actual letter. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://morganverkamp.com/statement-of-william-w-thompson-ph-d-regarding-the-2004-article-examining-the-possibility-of-a-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/&ved=0ahUKEwjHyfWqqc3RAhVO7mMKHcuBDIEQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNG53I5lFcg0tarG1EvP4lXnb1a_vw. Do you see any of that other drivel in there?

          • PK

            My friend Bill Posey told me Billy T said all those things. You should go ask Posey. BWAHAHAHA!

          • FallsAngel

            Are you a Poe?

          • shay simmons

            This would be the same William Thompson who said “I want to be absolutely clear that I believe vaccines have saved and continue to save countless lives. I would never suggest that any parent avoid vaccinating children of any race. Vaccines prevent serious diseases, and the risks associated with their administration are vastly outweighed by their individual and societal benefits.”

            That William Thompson?

          • PK

            I think it may be. But he also said these interesting comments on vaccines:
            “I regret that my co-authors and I omitted statistically-significant information in our 2004 article published in the Journal of Pediatrics.” Thompson
            “That’s the deal . . ., that’s what I keep seeing again and again and again . . . where these senior people [at CDC] just do completely unethical, vile things and no one holds them accountable.” Thompson
            “I basically have stopped lying.”
            “So I have to deal with a few months of hell if all this becomes public, um, no big deal. I’m not having to deal with a child who is suffering day in and day out.”
            “The CDC has put the research ten years behind. Because the CDC has not been transparent, we’ve missed ten years of research because the CDC is so paralyzed right now by anything related to autism.” William Thompson.
            Dr. Thompson also gives insight into media hype of outbreaks of measles in the U.S. and polio in third-world countries : “These drug companies and their promoters, they’re making such a big deal of these measles outbreaks. It’s like a never ending thing where the press loves to hype it and it scares people.”

            Hence the advice to skip the shot.

          • shay simmons
          • PK

            It looks like you decided not to bother with the documents that my friend Bill gave up to prove the CDC corruption and decided instead just to rely on what orac told you to think. I expected that. Good news though. Bill said his boss at the CDC hasn’t let him talk about it. But his boss is getting a new boss tomorrow and his new boss has already talked about wanting to know about the link between the vax any autism. Stay tuned!

          • shay simmons

            Would those be the documents that are freely available online because two pro-science posters put them out there?

          • PK

            I give you credit shay. You are the first pHARMatroll to admit that Ben Swann was pro-science. I’m sure he would appreciate the feedback on his Truth in Media page.

          • shay simmons

            Ben Swann didn’t put those docs on line. Matt Carey and Dorit Reiss did.

            So, of the 2000 documents out there in Dropbox, which ones specifically prove your claim? (Lurkers, what are the odds that PK tries to pull what s/he did with the list of aluminum adjuvant studies, none of which s/he bothered to read?)

          • PK

            Providing a link to the whistleblower attorney of a top level CDC vaccine researcher who has said that the CDC has cooked the books on the vaccine/autism connection doesn’t help your cause. Thanks for backing me up.

          • shay simmons

            Reading comprehension fail.

          • PK

            Reading comprehension fail. “MORGANVERKAMP, EXPERIENCED LITIGATORS WHO BRING QUI TAM CASES UNDER THE FALSE CLAIMS ACT, THE IRS WHISTLEBLOWER LAW”

          • shay simmons

            What case did Morgan Verkamp bring on behalf of Dr Thompson? Oh, wait…they haven’t.

          • Mike Stevens

            “He [Thompson] told me he felt terrible about going along with lying about this and that I should definitely NOT vaccinate my kids with the MMR.”
            Why not?
            Didn’t Bill appreciate that his own data showed no increase in autism for kids who were female or white? …Or maybe yours aren’t?

          • PK

            You should add racist to your profile.

          • Mike Stevens

            “You should add racist to your profile.”
            All I have done is point out that Thompson thought he showed higher autism rates in black, male children.
            That doesn’t make me racist (nor a hater of males or children).
            I find it telling that when you have nothing of any substance to say, you resort to insults.

            BTW, do you think the PEOTUS is a racist?

          • I’ll add racist if PK adds ableist.

          • shay simmons

            You didn’t read the study, did you?

          • Jonathan Graham

            Bill has been misleading himself.

            I have to believe Bill over “Merits the doublespeaking meme publisher” who can’t find 1 link in all of the internet to prove that speeding in the UK is a criminal offence.

            Me, I have to believe someone who knows that when you split your sample, further and further down. Subgrouping by age and then by race, you will eventually get a correlation to appear and pass significance. Bill doesn’t appear to know that so I’m sorry I can’t take him seriously on any issue of statistical analysis. Which this is…

          • PK

            You should get a job at the CDC Jon. They’ve been looking for “scientists” with your “beliefs” for their vaccine safety division. And if you can’t believe in Thompson’s abilities, you better tell the pHARMY about it. Most of the “science” they cite to show vax safety has his name on it.

          • Jonathan Graham

            You should get a job at the CDC Jon.

            That might be interesting work but I live in the wrong country

            They’ve been looking for “scientists” with your “beliefs” for their vaccine safety division.

            It’s not a matter of belief. What I said is exactly true. If large samples regress to the mean then small samples are going to tend toward non-representiveness (unless you believe that every subsample of a population sample is going to be normal itself which is highly unlikely).

            And if you can’t believe in Thompson’s abilities

            Thompson has done a bunch of research but not everyone involved in research is doing statistical analysis. Nor should they. That’s not his field, so what is his opinion worth?

            Perhaps, since you claim to be such good friends ask him WHY he thinks such a small subsample is a reliable indicator of the population it estimates?

          • PK

            I asked him about the data analysis. He said it was very difficult. The study was meant to last 6 months, but the data showed a strong link between the MMR and autism. It took all the researchers on his paper 4 years to make the link go away. I guess you are right. Keep slicing and dicing and when that doesn’t work, just change the study design after the fact to make it any offending data disappear.

          • Jonathan Graham

            But you didn’t ask him why he considered such a small group to be representative. Right?

            I guess you are right. Keep slicing and dicing and when that doesn’t work, just change the study design after the fact to make it any offending data disappear.

            The evidence shows that the study design wasn’t changed. Also you’ve never read DeStefano et al. Have you?

          • PK

            I asked him about the study but do you know what he said? His boss wouldn’t let him discuss it. But the good news is that he gets all new bosses tomorrow, and the big boss wants to know all about it. Stay tuned!

          • Jonathan Graham

            Uh…right. Are you sure isn’t isn’t an “imaginary CDC friend”?

            You could always ask him an abstract question about why exceptionally small subgroups would be representative.

          • PK

            He said if the groups were any larger, Then they would have needed more than 1 giant trashcan to throw away all the documents that showed they had cooked the books on that study.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I’m pretty sure this is just the voices in your head now. 🙂

            But it’s good to know that you don’t have any rebuttal concerning the fact that subgrouping a sample tends to bias the data.

          • PK

            I’m pretty sure you can’t recognize sarcasm and you don’t know/are denying the entire scandal surrounding Thompson and the CDC.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I’m pretty sure you can’t recognize sarcasm

            No it just sounds a lot you talking to imaginary friends.

            and you don’t know/are denying the entire scandal

            If Thompson’s assertion of a difference is invalid – and it is – then there is no scandal.

          • PK

            Thanks for straightening that out for me(sarcasm).

          • Jonathan Graham

            No charge.

          • shay simmons

            Except, of course, that — according to Dr Thompson — electronic copies of all of the documents were saved. No cover up, no cooking the books, nada.

          • Mike Stevens

            Rightttt… So your imaginary friend can discuss this study freely with you and let you tell us what he said, but as soon as Johnathan askes why you didn’t discuss sample size, your say yout imaginary friend said “Sorry I cannot discuss this study”?

          • PK

            You pro-vaxxers are going to join SHillary’s supporters in your safe place. My imaginary friend will get to talk about how the corrupt CDC has caused a generation of kids to suffer from vaccine induced autism. You and a few other pHARMatrolls can’t stop it. It’s going to be awesome.

          • Mike Stevens

            Keep on listening to that little voice in your head, PK.

          • PK

            You mean the voice that told me a CDC insider would eventually be filled with so much guilt that he would give up his coworkers and the CDC by admitting that vaccines cause autism and that he would provide the documents that prove it? That same voice that said wacky Donald would be POTUS and love him or hate him, he wants to know about the link between vaccines and autism? That same voice that said “we need someone like RFK Jr. to look into the tobacco science surrounding vaccines” and them bam, it happened? Bad news Mike. That same voice is telling me you are going to regret your position on vaccine safety and efficacy.

          • PK

            I see you have a problem recognizing sarcasm as well.

          • Mike Stevens

            I have no trouble recognising pure BS.

          • PK

            I don’t know Thompson. So in that regard…great job. As far as Thompson’s claims? That stuff is all true.

          • AutismDadd

            Maybe Kennedy will chose him to be on his committee to look into these crimes which include fraud and criminal negligence causing harm and death. To allow products to do this is unconscionable, but science addicts don’t agree.

          • PK

            That’s because those pro-vaxxers like their science “tobacco style.”

          • AutismDadd

            They share lwayers

          • AutismDadd

            Good lie

          • Suppose you want to go out but you need to find your keys first.

            You look on your desk. Not there. Do you know where your keys are yet? No. Do you know where they are not? Yes.

          • PK

            You should put that in a meme. Combine it with your “opinion” that spring is a criminal offense. That way you can “prove” you’re right on both threads.

          • Of course not. Memes neither prove nor disprove a thing.

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s hard to find lots of unvaxed controls, sure. Most parents are sensible.
            But some of those studies do have hundreds of unvaxed controls, sorry to say. It’s harder to demonstrate significance with small sample sizes, and the chances of a type 1 error are higher, but guess what? If you do show statistical significance, it means the effect is that much stronger.
            And statistically significant differences have been found in some studies, like that in the Phillipines.

          • PK

            Please tell me you aren’t trying to pawn of the CEBU study as good science!

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s just one study, and there are others.
            If it had concluded vaccines caused neurological damage, you can bet all you antivaxers would be trumpeting it as the best research study on the planet.

          • PK

            I’ve had it out with other pHARMatrolls before. Had I not already debunked CEBU the pHARMagameplan is always to praise it as vaccine gospel. Move on mikey.

          • Mike Stevens

            Well I don’t claim it is vaccine gospel. It’s just one more small piece of the huge jigsaw of evidence amassed which verifies the safety of vaccination (and the harm of not vaccinating).
            If you think you have “debunked” the CEBU study, I’d be pleased if you could give me a summary of the main objections, and explain why you surmise that they would invalidate the study’s conclusions. Like I said, it isn’t amazing research, and every study has limitations, this one included. These would represent caveats which warn against over-interpretation of the conclusions, and not points that would completely negate them, however.

          • PK

            Tell you what, why don’t you tell me about the study you cited? How’s about when and where? How was the data gathered and who did it? What was the autism rate in the Philippines and here at the time of the “study”?

          • Mike Stevens

            You want to know about the study we are discussing, and which you are critical of?
            Does that mean you haven’t even read it? (I wouldn’t be surprised – that is standard antivaccine MO)

            It’s the Cebu study in the Phillipines. It was set up by the Harvard Initiative for Global Health. The explanation of how they collected the data is very comprehensive, and too long to go into here. I suggest you look it up, and read it.

            The study looked at completely unvaccinated children and compared them to vaccinated children in a case-control analysis, with matching taking place by 4 different methods to ensure the best possible comparison. The selection was adjusted to ensure other variables that might affect the outcomes (such as educational availability, family income etc) were controlled for.
            The outcomes were that the vaccinated had highly significantly better scores for cognitive function (around 50% better). This encompassed verbal reasoning, maths and language.

            Now, the analysis did not look specifically for autism diagnoses, but that wasn’t intended to be one of the primary outcomes of the study anyway. One can hypothesise that if vaccines caused autism, it would negatively impact on cognitive function, but instead, it seems that the opposite is true. What the background autism rate was in the Phillipines is irrelevant, what it was in the USA even more so.

            My explanation for the differences would be that unvaccinated kids are unhealthier, getting more infections and thus poor health, which would affect their aquisition of cognitive skills and impair neurological function in general. Height and body mass index were lower in the unvaxed subjects too, but not significantly so.

            You have repeatedly told “On its own merits” to go read the research. I suggest you follow your own advice.

          • PK

            I know all about Cebu. That’s why I asked you very pointed questions about it. And why you didn’t answer any of my questions concerning it tells me you know why it’s junk.

          • Mike Stevens

            “I know all about Cebu. That’s why I asked you very pointed questions
            about it. And why you didn’t answer any of my questions concerning it
            tells me you know why it’s junk.”

            Really?
            This is what you asked me: “why don’t you tell me about the study you cited? How’s about when and where? How was the data gathered and who did it? What was the autism rate in the Philippines and here at the time of the “study”?”

            I told you about the study.
            I told you where it was, and who did it.
            I told you something of the analysis and suggested you read up about the full methodology, as it is quite comprehensive.
            I filled you in on all the relevant findings.
            It is not an autism study (did anyone ever say it was?), so I pointed out that it doesn’t refer to autism rates in the Phillipines, and did not look at autism as a primary outcome.

            Now you say that I “..didn’t answer any of your questions”?

            Perhaps your own cognitive development, memory and reading skills are lacking.

          • PK

            1. What is the subject of the news article that this thread is attached to? you lose.
            2. How was the data gathered? you lose
            3. When was is done? you lose
            4. Autism rates? you lose
            Perhaps your own cognitive development, memory and reading skills are lacking.
            You lose.

          • PK

            1. What is the subject of the news article that this thread is attached to? you lose.
            2. How was the data gathered? you lose
            3. When was it done? you lose
            4. Autism rates? you lose
            Perhaps your own cognitive development, memory and reading skills are lacking.
            You lose.

          • PK

            You should take Merits advice and go with the meme.

          • Mike Stevens

            “1. What is the subject of the news article that this thread is attached to? you lose.”
            No, I win. You were specifically responding to a meme posted which listed “vaccinated versus unvaccinated studies”.
            You stated: “You confuse “unvaccinated” with “less vaccinated”
            when you cite this meme. Go read the research.”

            The research (the Cebu study) did compare completely unvaccinated children with vaccinated children. So the only confusion is yours.

            2. How was the data gathered? you lose”
            No, I win. I gave a brief methodological outline and because the
            methodology is very comprehensive, I suggested you refer back to this section on the paper. That’s answering the question in my book.

            “3. When was is done? you lose”
            OK, I forgot to say the date of the study. My bad.
            It was 1994-5 for the cohorts reported on nin this part of the study.

            “4. Autism rates? you lose”
            Nope – I win. As I explained, your comments were on whether this was an example of a vaccinated versus unvaccinated study, not whether it was about autism.

            Other bits I won at:
            “Where was the study?”
            I win – I told you. Cebu, in the Phillipines.

            “Who did it?”
            I win again – it was the Harvard Initiative for Global Health, as I explained.

          • shay simmons

            Didn’t read the study, did you?

      • FACTS

        yes, lots of tobacco science is out there.. fake journals, corrupt officials, fraudulent studies, lies of ommission, censored news, silenced witnesses.. people like you are complicit in crimes against humanity, sorry to say.. if you are real, please look at the evidence that your sources are wildly corrupt and do not care about health or science.. The allegations come on the heels of revelations that Merck created a fake medical journal
        — the Australasian Journal of Bone and Joint Medicine — in which to
        publish studies about Vioxx; had pop songs commissioned about Vioxx to
        inspire its staff, and paid ghostwriters to draft articles about the
        drug.
        http://www.cbsnews.com/news/merck-created-hit-list-to-destroy-neutralize-or-discredit-dissenting-doctors/

        • What is that journal about?

          • Mike Stevens

            It was one of those glossy magazine-type publications with “news” items about medicine. They had commissioned reviews, put in previously published articles from other journals that were favourable to Vioxx, and filled them with their drug adverts. Pretty transparent stuff to those in the relevant medical fields, but thought to be useful in influencing attitudes in other sectors of the medical profession.

            Of course, since Merck were criticised for doing it, it means that every drug or pharmaceutical item ever produced by Merck must be toxic poison, obviously.
            Well, at least that’s the way people seem to think on here.

          • Also, it’s Bone and Joint Medicine so it would be irrelevant anyway even if it was a good journal.

    • The abstract destroyed the reaerchers- credibility. They can always self-publish, though! It would be nice to have the full text available.

      • kfunk937

        They were already scraping the bottom with a predatory publisher like FrontiersIn (although I have to credit FI for retracting, IIRC, an equally rubbish study they’d published on chemtrails). Perhaps the authors could try OMICS or SCIRP next, or cut to the chase and go straight to Scudamore’s blog.

        ICYMI, coverage and discussion of this disappearing abstract was particularly nice comprehensive at http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2016/11/29/antivaccinationists-promote-a-bogus-internet-survey-hilarity-ensues-as-its-retracted/.

    • Kevin

      “It is not possible to gain immunity via injection” That statement of yours tells me that you know nothing about vaccination.

      • Antibody Response To Vaccine Does Not Equal Immunity – that’s all I need to know. You’re talking to someone who didn’t have even a cold for over 20years and that wasn’t by luck so I think I’ll take my chances, lol!

        • EEJIT

          “You’re talking to someone who didn’t have even a cold for over 20years” Yes and I have not had cancer in 20 years,so what has that got to do with vaccination? You do know there is no vaccination against the common cold,do you?

          • Well I didn’t get the flu for 20 years either… or measles, or polio, or mumps, or rubella, and wouldn’t ya know it, I never even caught hepatitis B…. no toxic injections required! You do know there are vaccines for the flu, polio, measles, mumps, rubella and hepatitis B, and a slew more diseases that I never caught, don’t you?

            To each their own, buddy! Good luck with your vaccines though, I hope you inject enough to keep you healthy!

          • EEJIT

            Had ALL my vaccinations,had flu vaccinations for years,feel fine thank you.

          • Herd immunity only occurs naturally and vaccines surely can’t even come close to mimicking that considering many outbreaks are actually among the vaccinated so it’s obviously not that effective to create anything even remotely close to being considered herd immunity. Glad you feel fine but keep your health damaging beliefs to yourself so you don’t harm others.

            There’s a website that all of the vaccine believers and pharmaceutical shills reference called sciencebasemedicine.org, you should comment there instead of here because they all believe in your religion over there. You posting here makes you look like either a troll or a pharmaceutical shill for vaccines, just sayin’.

          • EEJIT

            You might try to keep your health damaging beliefs to yourself,SO you don’t harm others,You should post at HealthyNews,they believe in your Religion,See how it works?The difference is that there is overwhelming evidence for vaccination.If you are saying I am a pharmaceutical shill which infers that I am being paid,Evidence please.

          • I’m posting at thedailysheeple with other like-minded people… where I belong, see how that works? You’re either a vaccine shill or a vaccine religious fanatic so… go hang with the vaccine shill/vaccine religious fanatics… geez, not too hard to understand, it’s kind of common sense.

            Birds of a feather flock together and ain’t none deez birds vaccinated ’round deez parts, partna’!

            The difference actually is you have all kinds of $cientific evidence but unfortunately it’s all bought and paid for junk that wise people don’t believe and avoid at all costs.

          • EEJIT

            It;s a free country I will post where I like,Evidence regarding me being paid?

          • So you post here where your views aren’t welcome so, in other words, you’re a troll and that’s what those who are paid to post do so there’s your evidence you asked for.

          • EEJIT

            Heresay from you is NOT evidence.

          • Well neither is $cience but that doesn’t stop you, does it?

          • EEJIT

            WRONG,Science is evidence,still waiting for YOUR evidence that I am a paid troll.

          • $cience is not evidence, EEJIT, it’s corporate, bought and paid for garbage and the people know it. You trying to conflate $cience and science is hard evidence you are a paid troll/shill, you guys have neon signs hanging around your necks but you must think you just fit right in, lol.

          • EEJIT

            Will I live long enough to get evidence from you that I am a paid troll?

          • Everybody else can already see the evidence just like I can. How long will you live in denial about it? How should I know?

          • EEJIT

            “How should I know?” EXACTLY how do you know I am being paid?,still waiting for your evidence.

          • Man, those vaccines are assaulting your thought processes or something. Go re-read your posts, those are shill posts so if you AREN’T getting paid then you’re just losing money while promoting toxic, profit-making substances for pharmaceutical companies.

          • Ron Roy

            Joe I thought you desperately wanted to be part of the gang? If you admit to being paid your in. Imagine you’ll be a made woman in the MEDICAL MAFIA. Of course they may object to your admission of being paid but….. consider it the price of infamy.

          • Shame about the acoustics of your echo chamber being ruined.

          • Al Mather

            “I’m posting at thedailysheeple with other like-minded people… where I belong, see how that works? “**

            **I don’t like people here who disagree with my viewpoint… because I have nothing to support my viewpoint but nonsense, pseudo-science, and completely fabricated BS… and I don’t like that pointed out to me and others”

            This is a fact free zone EEJIT…. check em at the door or you ain’t welcome!

    • Jonathan Graham

      Antibodies do not equal immunity.

      They do strongly correlate with immunity and disease resistance.

      • Then go ahead and inject your health, just keep your religion to yourself, that’s all. All you people have to do is keep your religion to yourselves and there won’t be a problem.

        • Jonathan Graham

          Something strongly correlating with immunity and disease resistance isn’t a religion. For example prayer doesn’t strongly correlate with healing.

          • For example, vaccines do not correlate with good health but to $cientific religious nuts they do because they believe in $cience which is written by profit-making corporations and has the answers up front before any studies are performed and whatever the money says the results need to be, that’s what they are, and that has nothing to do with actual science. It is dogma, a religion that requires faith in $cientific $tudies because it adheres to the dogma of $cience, where the money always comes first, lol!.

          • Jonathan Graham

            vaccines do not correlate with good health

            Vaccines not only correlate with disease resistance and immunity but also good health as evidenced by HMO’s and other insurance companies encouraging vaccination and being highly profitable.

          • lol, you can’t inject good health, Jonathan, that’s ridiculous no matter how much you shill otherwise.

          • Jonathan Graham

            you can’t inject good health, Jonathan,

            …and yet the evidence rather strongly indicates that vaccination does increase overall good health. So perhaps your belief is…how do you say….wrong?

          • Propaganda isn’t evidence, it’s $cience, which is… how do you say… junk?

  • SleepKnowMore

    My local pharmacy has one of those arm-waving, dancing balloon men in front of a sign advertising all the different vaccines they offer…

    Hmm… I wonder which of their products they would most like to sell me.

    • Viagra or the like.

    • Homeopathic nostums.
      After all, how expensive is it to package tap water or cane sugar pills?
      No R&D required. No government inspection. No studies or evidence for safety and efficacy required. Whip it up on your kitchen table, apply the labels, get some idiotic pharmacy to sell it for you.

      2 oz. of tap water for $29.98 – that’s a good deal for you.

  • It’s frustrating that the study isn’t out there to critique and evaluate, but even the abstract indicates shabby methodology. Subjective evaluation by non-blind homeschooling parents who have different expectations? I’m not sure how you could even design a study with more observer bias. Besides that, the reasons for homeschooling vaccinated and unvaccinated children are usually very different, so the population itself is far from representative.

    • Plus of course you should object to methods before you’ve read the conclusions That way, you can’t decide it was fraud because it came up with a result you didn’t like.

      • AutismDadd

        You should edit this and turn it into something somewhat intelligent.

        • disqus_k3oycamN0W

          Merit or anyone from scienceblog/skeptocalraptor trolls can not turn out anything intelligent by definition.
          Poop can not be made into a candy.
          I guess on a candy topic “merit” will as always paste his question “Evidence?”

          • Gary

            Irrespective of the fact that poop can not be made into candy, Vaccinators will not cease to argue that the taste is comparable.

          • Why would the taste matter? Ingestion is not injection, remember?

          • Depends.

            If someone is claiming something that doesn’t make sense, then yes. As for things like taste/opinion, no.

        • By looking at the methodology first, you avoid being biased by the conclusion. If you like or dislike the conclusion, that can change your opinion of the methodology. For instance, I think the methodology in this study stinks. If it turns out that the study says vaccination is healthier, then you could throw those words in my face if I ever tried to use it as evidence.

          • AutismDadd

            I doubt I could, because I have no idea what you are babbling about.

          • If you can’t understand that, then you’re hardly in a position to try to explain anything about science to anybody.

          • AutismDadd

            I’m not trying to. You are and doing a crap job of it too.

          • It is amazing how you can twist yourself into pretzels, ignore facts, feign illiteracy, and deny reality to protect your anti-vaccine religious belief.

          • AutismDadd

            Why thank you.

    • dsaulw

      Of course the study is less than ideal, but the problem is that the CDC has refused to carry out the large-scale vaccinated-versus-unvaccinated study that the FDA told them to do decades ago.

      And why might that be? Well, they know full well that the results will not promote their agenda and will very much confirm this study and many other ones suggesting much the same thing.

      • I’ve got two questions about that.

        1. I’ve heard people claim that such a study has been ordered (nobody seems to agree on who ordered it, though), but nobody can show a source for that. Who told the CDC to do the study, and when? By now, I think it’s just a lie to try to smear the CDC.

        2. How is the CDC supposed to deal with the fact that the vaccinated and unvaccinated groups would be self-selected, with their own differing conditions and agendas? Doing a blinded experiment would break the international rules for human experimentation, so that’s right out.

        • AutismDadd

          There are thousands of unvaccinated people, but of course they want to muddy the waters with mandatory vaccination that will act as a melting pot that will eliminate the unvaccinated subjects

          • Are you familiar with the term “confounding variable?”

          • Mike Stevens

            I doubt Adad is familiar with it.
            The phrase consists of words of more than 2 syllables, neither of which is a swear word.

          • AutismDadd

            Be sure to wipe and flush Mike. Don’t forget kay?

          • Gary

            That’s an admission that there are other ways to healthy life than vaccinations, if not a condemnation of vaccinations themselves as harmful.

          • Huh?

          • Gary

            Just a response to your statement – “Are you familiar with the term “confounding variable?”

            If there are no trials of vaccinated vs unvaccinated due to “confounding variables”, this is admission by the vaccines companies that there are other ways than vaccination to achieve immunity to disease (or the “confounding variables” would not be an issue for such studies).

          • No, it doesn’t show that. First, you’re assuming that the unvaccinated don’t get the diseases. Second, you’re confusing not getting the disease to being immune from it. Homeschooling an unvaccinated child, for example, reduces their exposure to potential VPD vectors. If unvaccinated children are more likely to be homeschooled, they may be less likely to contract the disease simply by virtue of not being around it. This doesn’t mean that homeschooling provides immunity, that not vaccinating provides immunity, or that any other particular thing the parents are doing provides immunity. People who choose not to vaccinate their children often have traits in common that they do not share with parents who do choose to vaccinate their children. This makes it difficult to isolated a single cause for any differences between self-selected vaccinated and unvaccinated groups. Since you can’t reliably test many hypotheses from the kinds of studies that you’re allowed to do according to international rules of human experimentation, nobody bothers to waste the time or money to conduct them. But this is a waste of time — you’ll still choose not to understand what confounding variables are, or how they affect what information you can get.

          • 655321

            Why does homeschooling reduce risk of exposure if the vaccinated kids have the mythical vaccine herd immunity? Your argument is pure BS, attempting to justify the one study that would all questions.

          • AutismDadd

            Well it is Ken S after all. You may need to lower your expectations.

          • 655321

            At least he’s not a hard core shill, more likely a soft core dupe?

          • AutismDadd

            Well initially , but his courage may be growing as he learns the shillisms from the hardcore shillbots.

          • 655321

            You can sum up the hardcores….Helsinki says safety testing is unethical, and at same time these products have all been thoroughly tested. The rest is more of the same circular verbal and mental diarrhea.

          • AutismDadd

            Yep ethics have no place in Vaccination Politics.

          • AutismDadd

            Speaking of hard and soft have you heard the news that E.D. meds are being associated with melanoma? Another set of miracle products rear their ugly heads.

          • 655321

            No, but not surprising.

          • AutismDadd

            Everything we put in our bodies has a consequence. So many think NOT. I had friends who would eat an extra large chocolate cake muffin and a beer for breakfast on fishing trips who later said their stomach was upset. Yea no kidding!!!

          • Because vaccines aren’t magical or universal. They are not 100% effective, and diseases can and have penetrated schools.

          • 655321

            How circular of you.

          • Can you count from 0 to 100 without skipping any of the numbers in between?

          • AutismDadd

            Wow the Next Steven Hawking

          • Thanks, but I’m not that smart!

          • AutismDadd

            My point EXACTLY

          • Gary

            LOL! C’mon Ken. You can at least string a sentence together without relying on someone to type it for you. 🙂

          • Stephen Hawking can do a lot better than that, even if he does use a speech synthesizer! Compared to him, we’re just playing with crayons. 😛

          • Gary

            I guess when it comes to Stephen Hawking, I’m a non-believer. 🙂

          • How so? Now I’m curious what you mean!

          • Gary

            Well, he’s a bit like Bart Simpson, isn’t he? Today, Stephen’s photographs literally show a different man, looking younger than the photographs of the man taken 20 years prior.

            Also, his amyotrophic lateral sclerosis has been some 45 years (and counting) kinder to him than it is to most sufferers.

            Some may claim coincidence, but I’m no coincidence theorist.

          • Ah, yeah, I was thinking about that the other day. I always figured he just had better access to care than most ALS sufferers, but it is pretty striking.

          • AutismDadd

            Coincidence theorist…LOL

          • Gary

            Lol. Don’t look behind the curtains, though, or you might see the same pair of hands controlling all the sock-puppets.

          • AutismDadd

            Its Ken B.S.

          • Learnt to count from 0-100 yet?

          • AutismDadd

            Quite the stool sample. So you would claim exposure to KILLER DISEASES can’t happen because they don’t mix? What about community sports? What about movie theaters etc where there is no Pro-vac Gestapo at the door doing titer testing to see Star Wars? It the same garbage with those who can’t be vaccinated or exposed due to health status. Unless they live in a bubble its not possible. And there is no guarantee they could associate with the vaccinated either based on the amount of failure and the wearing off of their “life-long” immunity.

          • That’s why I said “reduces” instead of “permanently ends.” Can you count from 0 to 100 without skipping the numbers in between?

          • AutismDadd

            Yawn. Blather on dude.

          • Is that a no?

          • AutismDadd

            Its a yawn

          • It’s a no.

          • AutismDadd

            Now its a bbrrraaattt

          • Ahh, here’s the part of the discussion where you’ve lost so badly that you retreat into “nuh uhn!” and fart noises. Too bad you don’t have the honesty to make a decent counterargument.

          • AutismDadd

            Yea

          • Mike Stevens

            So, I take it from that gobbledegook that you are unfamiliar with the term “confounding variable”.

          • Gary

            Have you thought of an example of a “confounding variable” that would make vaccines appear less safe? 🙂

          • Mike Stevens

            “Have you thought of an example of a “confounding variable” that would make vaccines appear less safe? :)”

            Sure. That’s an easy one.
            How about having an older child in the family who has autism?

          • With large enough groups, would that really be a confounding variable? Seems to me that autism history and other conditions would be evenly distributed between the groups, at least before selection.

            EDIT: Oh, oh, oh, are you talking about an observational study instead of an experimental one?

          • Mike Stevens

            Indeed. A randomised prospective study would not have potential confounding of that type. But it would be unethical to have placebo controls, unless Helsinki Declaration rules applied.

          • Gary

            Uh, pre-existing medical condition? Try again, though. 🙂

          • Mike Stevens

            Thanks for confirming you don’t know what a confounding variable is. We thought as much.

          • Gary

            It sounds its you that doesn’t know what a confounding variable is. Nice try on the deflection attempt, though. 🙂

          • Yeah, Mike just gave you one.

          • AutismDadd

            Very good Mike, you see the connection

          • There are no randomized controlled blind trials because that would violate the Helsinki Declaration. Observational/epidemiological studies are weakened by the confounding variables that come with people placing themselves into the vaccinated or unvaccinated groups. Unvaccinated people tend to have certain characteristics in common or conditions that would muddle the results. For instance, the unvaccinated group will contain more people with severe allergies to vaccine ingredients. These allergies also make them more likely to suffer severe allergic reactions, which could skew the study results to make vaccine refusal seem more dangerous. For another example, vaccine refusers may be more likely to use alternative medicine, which could create new differences between them and the vaccinated group.

            I would really like to be able to do a blind study, but I struggle to come up with a practical way to construct an ethical experiment where you withhold approved and recommended vaccines without participants’ knowledge. The only idea I have right now is to perform a very large-scale experiment in a quarantined community where experimenters can guarantee no exposure to vaccine-preventable diseases. Nobody could enter without being tested and observed to prevent them from bringing in disease. Naturally, participants would be able to opt out, learn their vaccination status, and go into exile whenever they choose.

          • FallsAngel

            In addition, the unvaxxed would probably go to the doctor less. There has been some research on that. Meaning that better health in the vaxxed might be the “healthy patient effect” that we see with SIDS in vaxxed vs non-vaxxed.

          • AutismDadd

            More like the blatant garbage effect. All these slogans, meme’s and ideology wrapped up in medical plopaganda.

          • sabelmouse

            what?

          • FallsAngel

            Look it up. You’ve seen it on here before.

          • sabelmouse

            i can’t make sense of your comment.

          • FallsAngel

            That’s on you, not me!

          • AutismDadd

            100% understandable

          • AutismDadd

            But then how would you fudge the findings so you could use it as misinformation?

          • 1. This is more evidence in your belief in a conspiracy to falsify information, as I explained and showed.

            2. You wouldn’t fudge the findings, because the entire point would be to get accurate results.

          • AutismDadd

            WOW you win today’s major prize. An all expense paid trip to the NVICP to attend trials and eye witness parents being denied compensation for following the advice of their doctors and CDC.

          • Why do they deserve compensation for following the advice of their doctors and CDC? I do that. Do I deserve compensation?

          • AutismDadd

            First you have to win at Vaccine Roulette.

          • How do you win at Vaccine Roulette?

          • Gary

            The more times you play, the better your odds! 🙂

          • What constitutes winning?

          • Gary

            Getting compensation for being vaccine damaged, of course. Do try to maintain focus.

          • Thank you!

          • AutismDadd

            I told you the very same thing clown

          • Gary

            Kinda ironic he’s defending the very vaccines that probably dumbed him down so much. Lol. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            Lets hope

          • AutismDadd

            Your child has adverse reactions or dies.

          • So who’s been denied unfairly?

          • AutismDadd

            Victims

          • Ones who can’t show >50% likelihood that vaccines caused their injuries?

          • AutismDadd

            They are compensated for Table Injuries as defined and described by experts. Yes EXPERTS in VACCINE INJURY

          • Yes, compensating table injuries is part of what the NVICP is supposed to do. It exists because vaccine injury is a real thing that happens sometimes.

          • AutismDadd

            You are catching on Ken boy. All you have to do is to understand it happens more than recognized or admitted.

          • Got some evidence?

          • AutismDadd

            Do you actually understand what’s going on in these forums?

          • Got some evidence?

          • AutismDadd

            So you don’t understand why this issue exists.

          • If you don’t have evidence, can you explain the issue to me?

          • AutismDadd

            Use you brain for once and do some research.

          • How about you use your brain and explain the issue if you can’t show any evidence?

          • AutismDadd

            If you can’t find the answers you want how would I? Get crackin

          • You said:

            All you have to do is to understand [vaccine injury] happens more than recognized or admitted.

            You’ve repeatedly refused to show any reason why I should believe you. I’m just going to chalk this up as a retraction of your claim.

          • AutismDadd

            Here’s a bulletin. I couldn’t care less what you believe.

          • You don’t seem to care much about what you believe, either!

          • AutismDadd

            So NO…gotcha

          • Got some evidence?

          • Gary

            The examples of confounding variables you list would only make the vaccines appear safer. There would be no hesitation from vaccinators to conduct such control experiments, were these the only obstacles to vaccine proponents conducting such experiments.

            A valid control need not be a blind trial.

          • Yeah. Whether they would skew the results for or against vaccines, they would make the results unreliable, so those studies aren’t being conducted. Why don’t your people conduct them?

          • Gary

            My people do conduct them, and your people complain that the results are unreliable.

            Seems that you can’t prove vaccines safe, and you can’t justify taking an unproven drug for a condition that may never eventuate.

          • My people do conduct them, and your people complain that the results are unreliable.

            No, your people do not conduct randomized controlled experiments. If the Helsinki Declaration is just a cop-out, then what’s keeping them from doing double-blind vaccinated vs. unvaccinated experiments?

            Seems that you can’t prove vaccines safe, and you can’t justify taking an unproven drug for a condition that may never eventuate.

            Except that vaccines are subjected to rigorous safety testing, so yeah, they are proven safe. Vaccines are the reason that most VPDs don’t eventuate in the first place.

          • Gary

            The onus is not on us to prove an experimental drug unsafe, in order to justify not taking it. The onus is on those wanting to push this drug onto everyone, to demonstrate its safe.

            If you can’t do this because of some Helsinki Declaration, or whatever other excuse you want to use, don’t try and tell me you’ve proved your drug safe.

            If you’ve used some lesser standard to “prove your drug safe”, don’t complain when my people use similar methods to prove your drug dangerous.

          • Who’s using a lesser standard? Drug trials use randomized controlled blind testing. Why can’t your people do the same thing?

          • Gary

            “There are no randomized controlled blind trials because that would violate the Helsinki Declaration.”

            Are you a bunch of different shills using the same account? This was only one post back.

          • No, I thought you were talking about the licensing trials instead of theoretical fully-vaccinated vs. fully-unvaccinated experiments. The licensing trials are RCTs. There are no vaccinated/unvaccinated RCTs because of the Helsinki rules.

          • Correct. Since it isn’t experimental….your objections are irrelevant.

          • 655321

            One of my favorite pro vax arguments is the Helsinki…so a drug ASSUMED to be safe, having never been adequately tested, is ok to inject into newborns and infants, using them as guinea pigs, because we assume the vaccine to be safe, because actually testing would be unethical, but injecting untested biologicals into newborns is ethical. Go figure.

          • One of my favorite anti vax arguments is the lie that vaccines aren’t tested for safety before being licensed and used. Not a single one is licensed for use until it is demonstrated that they are safe to use, either against a placebo where no licensed vaccine exists for the target disease, or against previously safety-tested vaccines where they do exist. Go figure.

          • 655321

            How circular of you. Please cite the true placebo tests then we can get started dismantling your incorrect statement.

          • Which placebo tests do you want to see?

          • 655321

            The current vaccine schedule

          • What does that mean? You want to see the placebo tests for each licensed vaccine that satisfies the schedule? I’m not sure you know this, but the schedule doesn’t specify which vaccines to use.

          • 655321

            And?

          • Maybe.

          • FallsAngel

            Read it, dope!

          • AutismDadd

            flagged

          • 655321

            I did you moron, apparently you did not. Why don’t you spell out the exact info in the link that has relevance to this thread?

          • FallsAngel
          • 655321

            That’s a real nice try, but a fail. You cited a marketing piece, not a science piece. Cite the safety tests using a non-vaccinated control group or stop making a fool of yourself.

          • FallsAngel

            Oh, Go fly your kite, Herbert! This stuff has been cited over and over. You’re the fool.

          • 655321

            Lol, right, its been cited but no-one has actually ever seen it! That’s an old classic FA!

          • FallsAngel

            It’s all over the place here. You’re a troll. That’s well known.

          • 655321

            That’s all you got. Classic. Didn’t expect anything of substance from you.

          • AutismDadd

            That’s Mission Impossible for FalseAngel

          • AutismDadd

            flagged for extreme rudeness

          • AutismDadd

            FDA? You’re freakin kiddin right?

          • No, I’m not. I know you automatically reject any information that conflicts with your religious dogma, but it’s there for people more honest than you to evaluate.

          • AutismDadd

            Yawn are you a Flat Earther too? 🙁

          • Nope! I go with the evidence, not dogma.

          • AutismDadd

            Hilarious. What’s medical consensus if not dogma?

          • I think you’re confused about what the word “dogma” means.

          • AutismDadd

            Nope. You are

          • dog·ma
            ˈdôɡmə/
            noun
            a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

            con·sen·sus
            kənˈsensəs/
            noun
            general agreement.

            Dogma is prescribed by a single authority and cannot be altered or challenged by anybody but that authority.

            Consensus is reached by the mutual agreement of many, and can change at any time.

            If consensus meant dogma, then we wouldn’t believe in germs, DNA, the Hayflick limit, etc.

          • AutismDadd

            Yep consensus is dogma alright.

          • Google “Leonard Hayflick” and “Alexis Carrel.”

          • AutismDadd

            I don’t see dogma or medical consensus, so I won’t be

          • Do your research.

          • Mike Stevens

            Herbert, how about saline placebo-controlled trials of the rotavaccine, which is now part of the recommended schedule?
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9652561
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16826486
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9386673
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8545227

            Perhaps you should read a bit about the ethics of vaccination studies using placebos:
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4157320/
            http://hrc.govt.nz/sites/default/files/23972%20HRC%20Ethics_1114-online.pdf

          • AutismDadd

            Ethics links are double talk

          • 655321

            Lol, Herbert? Are you confusing me with your blow-up doll? Ok, so you allegedly have 1, ONE true placebo vaccine test….another joke from the product pushing board sociopath.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Lol, Herbert?”

            Yes, “Herbert West”, one of the other sockie nyms you post under. You can’t have forgotten already?

            Here is the blog author reminding you that you were posting under different names from the same IP address.
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6d0419b9eaae03a3a69ffa12504a7d339a29ee6bc9c97153d082d1a0b4cba10b.jpg

          • 655321

            Amy Tuteur? Seriously? She another of your blow up dolls? Mike, your circus trolling is so old, cite the safety tests comparing un-vaccinated children to vaccinated children. There are more than enough non-vaccinated children to do this study. No pharma sponsored excuses of being “unethical” , “Helsinki” or whatever else. These studies will never be done and you know exactly why, though you’ll troll these boards forever hoping to ease your conscience.

          • As long as you don’t cite the Tuskegee nonsense.

          • Polio Pioneers.

          • 655321

            Stop. Your regularly scheduled campaign to double down on the stupidity of your previous comment isn’t that funny anymore.

          • Learnt what unvaccinated means?

          • AutismDadd

            Really? But in combination, say 9 in one day? Oh, and about FDA approval, they approved VIOXX and every other nightmare pharmaceutical that’s ever maimed and killed consumers. The approval is for use (experimentation on consumers), not for actual safety.

          • What’s stopping Wakefield, Adams, and the rest from doing true placebo studies to test your theory about nine in one day?

            As for VIOXX and other drugs that have caused harm, those are the exception rather than the rule. Fortunately, we have independent research to find problems, regulatory agencies that can correct their mistakes, and civil courts to compensate victims.

          • AutismDadd

            Correct mistakes AND compensate victims at the same time? That’s just legal management of the industry. What stopped Wakefield originally? The General Medical Council acting for GlaxoSmithKline and MERCK (synonymous with consumer death).
            And you’s support experimenting on babies giving them 9 vaccines in one visit, but make a fuss about a vaccinated VS unvaccinated study because of a form of twisted ethics?

          • Correct mistakes AND compensate victims at the same time? That’s just legal management of the industry.

            Why wouldn’t two separate branches of government be able to do two things at once? Mistakes should be corrected and victims of torts should be compensated. I don’t understand why you would be opposed to either of those things.

            What stopped Wakefield originally? The General Medical Council acting for GlaxoSmithKline and MERCK synonymous with consumer death).

            So what? You don’t have to be a doctor to conduct research. What’s keeping him and the rest from performing the studies you clamor for?

            And you’s support experimenting on babies giving them 9 vaccines in one visit, but make a fuss about a vaccinated VS unvaccinated study because of a form of twisted ethics?

            Who’s experimenting on them? The vaccines have been tested for safety, nobody is mandating nine vaccinations (which?) in a single visit (when?), and VAERS exists specifically to aid researchers in discovering and studying apparent unforeseen risks. Why haven’t your heroes been using VAERS to kick off actual experiments? Why do they rely on the CDC and Big Pharma to actually find, discover, and fix problems? Where were your heroes when VIOXX was licensed?

            The answer is that they’re not actually researchers at all. They don’t know how to conduct genuine experiments, and they’re not about to spend their profits and donations on research when they could be buying a bigger house or a nicer car.

          • AutismDadd

            Poor Ken blowing a gasket.

          • Poor AutismDadd, stumped by the truth.

          • AutismDadd

            Nope.

          • ‘fraid so. Stumped with no answer to give, because your entire argument is based on taking the word on con men.

          • AutismDadd

            A licence meaning FDA approved? Hilarious. FDA approved VIOXX and every other nasty fraudulent product that has ever maimed and killed a consumer. Credibility affected I think.

          • It’s not perfect, no. Still, the information obtained by FDA-required safety studies provided the clues that got it withdrawn from the market. Your heroes were nowhere to be found.

          • AutismDadd

            BULL. It was on the market for years. Safety studies done after thousands were harmed and killed? Way to go FDA!!!!

          • Yes, the FDA didn’t do a very good job with VIOXX. Lessons should be learned from that, but it’s absurd to flatly denounce the FDA as useless and awful because it was slow.

          • Mike Stevens
          • Interesting stuff! Thanks for the link. It’s a good reminder of how difficult it can be to get good data ethically.

          • FallsAngel

            Oh?

          • AutismDadd

            Is that where Provaxxers weasel their way around doing a study by claiming its unethical to study unvaccinated children?

          • No, it’s the problem with studying self-selected experimental and control groups with statistically significant differences that correlate with their vaccination status.

            Suppose you were testing a new cold medicine and you needed sick participants for an efficacy trial. You find 100 people with colds and bring them to your office. When they get there, you ask them “So, do you want the medicine or the placebo?” When the groups select themselves, suddenly the composition of the groups will vary based on how sick they are and other factors that will make it harder to evaluate the medicine. If sicker people decided to take the medicine and less sick people chose the placebo, that would be a “confounding variable.”

            And, as you’ve been repeatedly informed, denying participants proven vaccines and knowledge of their vaccination status violates international rules for human experimentation. We’re stuck with epidemiological studies for now.

            I’ve got a question for you, though — if the medical mafia is so eager to force vaccines on us, why is BCG vaccine not used in the United States when it’s common elsewhere?

          • 655321

            Thats a BS argument. No 2 people have identical immune systems, with or without medication people are going to resolve illness at different rates.

          • Yes, that’s why you want large groups with a random distribution, not self-selected groups where similar participants can gather in one or the other.

          • 655321

            You have 2 very large groups. Get the study done. There is no excuse.

          • Two very large self-selected groups, yeah. Not very good for testing a hypothesis! Besides, what would you do if the CDC did a large scale epidemiological study and found that the unvaccinated group isn’t healthier? I think I know exactly what you’d do…

          • AutismDadd

            Hasn’t CDC already done that to protect the reputation of faulty vaccines? C’mon Ken give us the pubmed links.

          • I’m not aware of a large scale study in America, no. I’ve got no PubMed links for you.

          • AutismDadd

            Not AWARE??? Your Christmas Bonus may hang in the balance.

          • I’m not being paid to post here, no.

          • Gary

            Lol. Its a hard life, being “self employed”. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            Cancel the XMAS bonus

          • AutismDadd

            The study would be about their life conditions. What illnesses or disabilities exist in the separate groups.

          • Feel free to conduct one! I certainly won’t stop you.

          • AutismDadd

            Send me the $$$

          • Why don’t you ask Wakefield, Mercola, Adams, Tenpenny, etc.?

          • AutismDadd

            Most likely we’ll see it from them while we will NEVER see it from Vaccine proponents.

          • Don’t hold your breath. Why do you think they’re anti-vaccine in the first place? I’ll give you a hint: It starts with “money” and ends with “money.”

          • AutismDadd

            No in you case it starts with and ends with duh. So vaccine makers make and distribute for free then?

          • No, they don’t, but they’re also required to demonstrate safety and efficacy.

          • AutismDadd

            What is this comedy central? Rarely do they properly test them. Using other vaccines as placebo’s? Using aluminum adjuvant as a placebo? Give you head a shake.

          • It has already been repeatedly explained to you why replacement vaccines use other vaccines as controls.

          • AutismDadd

            Nope. Its a con job

          • Excuses, excuses…

          • AutismDadd

            Great spelling

          • AutismDadd

            That’s not how cover up and misinformation works. Check the shill manual for more information on that.

          • AutismDadd

            Yawn 4 the con

          • Actual science puts you to sleep, eh? Not surprising.

          • AutismDadd

            Yea TRASH science

          • Hehe, that might mean something if you had the capacity to tell good science from trash science. Your only criterion is whether you like the conclusion or not!

          • AutismDadd

            Great assumption. Not valid though.

          • AutismDadd

            WOW what a hard question about offering sick people medicine that becomes a compounding variable. How bout NOT offering to let them chose then? Apparently BCG vaccine isn’t very effective or long lasting and TB doesn’t occur in large numbers. Not using it makes sense, and I guess Pharma isn’t blackmailing gov’t into using it.

          • BCG isn’t effective? Are you saying other vaccines are effective? What does it matter whether it’s effective, anyway? Wouldn’t the MEDICAL MAFIA still profit from forcing everybody to buy it?

          • AutismDadd

            Turns out Ken S is becoming just another blathering clued out parrot that harps on nonsense and defends anything remotely stupid as a way to highlight his own opinion of himself. Cue the Yawn fest and cure the insomnia.

          • Why doesn’t the MEDICAL MAFIA want to make more money from mandatory BCG vaccination?

          • AutismDadd

            Yawn. You tell us and save us the pain of exchanging meaningless posts over it.

          • They don’t force us to get BCG because there isn’t an all-powerful conspiracy to sterilize everyone/make everyone autistic/kill everyone/whatever. BCG isn’t necessary here, so it isn’t used.

          • AutismDadd

            Pretty much what I said except where you include the conspiracy nonsense you bots seem addicted to.

          • That “conspiracy nonsense” is your claim that there is an organized cabal of crooked doctors and companies falsifying records, intentionally causing harm, and paying people to comment on Disqus. The conspiracy is your theory, AutismDadd.

          • AutismDadd

            How absurd. Show me where I’ve claimed those things.

          • From the last week:

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/thedailysheeple/2016_health_study_on_vaccinated_vs_unvaccinated_children_pulled_from_publication_after_it_found_vaxx/#comment-3050581230

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/thedailysheeple/2016_health_study_on_vaccinated_vs_unvaccinated_children_pulled_from_publication_after_it_found_vaxx/#comment-3050591349

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/friendlyatheist1/anti_vaxxers_are_thrilled_to_finally_have_an_ally_in_the_white_house/#comment-3050546928

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/thedailysheeple/2016_health_study_on_vaccinated_vs_unvaccinated_children_pulled_from_publication_after_it_found_vaxx/#comment-3052077422

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/govtslaves/pharma_hacks_tells_hpv_vaccine_damaged_teen_they_8216don8217t_feel_guilty8217_about_destroying_lives/#comment-3052173324

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/govtslaves/pharma_hacks_tells_hpv_vaccine_damaged_teen_they_8216don8217t_feel_guilty8217_about_destroying_lives/#comment-3052181938

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/wbtw-tv/doctors_recommend_young_children_get_the_hpv_vaccine/#comment-3052189887

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/newstarget/abc_censored_99_of_this_stunning_interview_on_vaccine_truth_heres_what_they_didnt_want_you_to_witnes/#comment-3052207455

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/wncn/nc_parents_weigh_benefits_risks_of_hpv_vaccinations_for_children/#comment-3052216214

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/thedailysheeple/2016_health_study_on_vaccinated_vs_unvaccinated_children_pulled_from_publication_after_it_found_vaxx/#comment-3054255200

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/thedailysheeple/2016_health_study_on_vaccinated_vs_unvaccinated_children_pulled_from_publication_after_it_found_vaxx/#comment-3054257144

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/thedailysheeple/2016_health_study_on_vaccinated_vs_unvaccinated_children_pulled_from_publication_after_it_found_vaxx/#comment-3054272957

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/naturalnews/new_studies_once_again_link_mercury_to_autism/#comment-3054366023

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/thedailysheeple/2016_health_study_on_vaccinated_vs_unvaccinated_children_pulled_from_publication_after_it_found_vaxx/#comment-3054648960

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/thedailysheeple/2016_health_study_on_vaccinated_vs_unvaccinated_children_pulled_from_publication_after_it_found_vaxx/#comment-3054660727

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/thedailysheeple/2016_health_study_on_vaccinated_vs_unvaccinated_children_pulled_from_publication_after_it_found_vaxx/#comment-3054666477

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/vactruth/anti_vaccinators_and_their_brave_fight_since_the_smallpox_vaccine/#comment-3056841346

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/thedailysheeple/2016_health_study_on_vaccinated_vs_unvaccinated_children_pulled_from_publication_after_it_found_vaxx/#comment-3056900805

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/vactruth/4_month_old_baby_donates_organs_after_receiving_7_vaccine_doses/#comment-3056918635

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/vactruth/anti_vaccinators_and_their_brave_fight_since_the_smallpox_vaccine/#comment-3058083381

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/naturalnews/as_the_flu_shot_wreaks_havoc_on_humans_more_young_adults_are_skipping_it/#comment-3060256052

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/thedailysheeple/2016_health_study_on_vaccinated_vs_unvaccinated_children_pulled_from_publication_after_it_found_vaxx/#comment-3061398530

            https://disqus.com/home/discussion/thedailysheeple/2016_health_study_on_vaccinated_vs_unvaccinated_children_pulled_from_publication_after_it_found_vaxx/#comment-3061516158

          • AutismDadd

            Get real fool.

          • You can ignore it if you like, but there’s the evidence that you believe in a conspiracy.

          • AutismDadd

            Wrong. I’ve said it over and over, MEDICAL CONSENSUS is at fault. An agreement to move forward with vaccine strategy no matter what. That would include adverse effects. One only has to watch pharmaceutical commercials to hear that pharma products can kill you when they claim to be health supporting to know something is seriously wrong with that concept.

          • A conspiracy theory by any other name…

          • Gary

            You can’t argue with the facts, Ken. From the early days of “curing” ailments with leaches, to barring doctors from their livelihoods for publishing unsupportive papers, that there is a conspiracy by the Medical Consensus is not a theory.

          • Who’s been barred from their livelihood for publishing unsupportive papers? I need some reason to believe in this conspiracy.

          • AutismDadd

            Question is who has or who feels threatened, and how does that impact science.

          • Yeah, that’s the question. Who? Who’s been punished for publishing unsupportive papers? Publishing bad data is a moneymaker for the anti-vaccine heroes, so what’s the danger?

          • AutismDadd

            Wow, you are even dumber than I thought. Medical/science journals contain 70% trash science. How about that? What the other 30% is well its probably trashish

          • As determined by the rigorous, impartial standard of “whether I agree with the conclusions.”

          • Ron Roy

            The AMA has always conspired to prevent any competition from succoring. Here’s a modern day example:

            CHICAGO, Aug. 28—
            The American Medical Association led an effort to
            destroy the chiropractic profession by depriving its practitioners of
            association with medical doctors and by calling them ”unscientific
            cultists” or worse, a Federal district judge has ruled.

            Judge Susan Getzendanner described the conspiracy as
            ”systematic, long-term wrongdoing and the long-term intent to destroy a
            licensed profession” in a ruling late Thursday in an antitrust lawsuit
            filed in 1976.

            The decision said the nation’s largest physicians’
            group led a boycott by doctors intended ”to contain and eliminate the
            chiropractic profession.”

            Dr. Alan Nelson, chairman of the A.M.A. board of
            trustees, said in a telephone interview today from Salt Lake City, ”we
            don’t think there was ever a boycott or a conspiracy.”

            Chiropractic is a method of treatment based on the
            theory that disease is caused by interference with nerve function, which
            practioners try to correct by manipulating the spine and other joints.

            In addition to ”labeling all chiropractors
            unscientific cultists and depriving chiropractors of association with
            medical physicians, injury to reputation was assured by the A.M.A.’s
            name-calling practice,” Judge Getzendanner said.

            The lawsuit, filed by four chiropractors, accused
            the Chicago-based A.M.A., four of its officials and 10 other medical
            groups of conspiring to prevent chiropractors from practicing in the
            United States. Remedy to Be Worked Out

          • 1. Read the question. Your unsourced post doesn’t answer it. On the contrary, it describes four chiropractors trying to punish the AMA for being unsupportive of them.

            2. It’s a good thing for the AMA to try to prevent harmful pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo from being treated as equal to medicine.

          • AutismDadd

            You say conspiracy, I say medical consensus. Try to keep up.

          • AutismDadd

            So little time to help Ken S get in touch with reality.

          • In other words, “nuh uhn!”

          • AutismDadd

            no oh

          • AutismDadd

            YAWN. Medical Consensus (vaccine use) is the elephant in the room.

          • So why doesn’t the Medical Consensus tell Americans and Europeans to buy BCG vaccine? What’s the reason?

          • AutismDadd

            I thought we established that?

          • What do you think the reason is?

          • AutismDadd

            We have been over this. Do you have a mental disability?

          • No, that’s a lie. What do you think the reason is?

          • AutismDadd

            Mental disability confirmed. You told me why in another post. Again try to keep up with what YOU said.

          • Yes, and you haven’t indicated whether you believe that explanation or not. Why do you think BCG isn’t recommended for USA/Canada and western Europe?

          • AutismDadd

            Ask the Medical Mafia

          • The “medical mafia” says it’s because TB is so rare in North America and western Europe that the costs outweigh the benefits. Do you believe them?

          • AutismDadd

            Why wouldn’t I?

          • That’s not an answer. Do you believe them?

          • AutismDadd

            They make their own policy decisions. I’m not involved.

          • That’s not an answer. Do you believe them?

          • AutismDadd

            Makes no difference. And again this was after you told me about why that vac wasn’t used.

          • It’s OK to have an answer besides “yes, absolutely” or “no, they’re definitely lying.” Do you believe their explanation? Are you skeptical? Do you think they’re probably right?

          • AutismDadd

            Its the OFFICIAL WORD they don’t need or want outside opinions or ideas. That’s how consensus works.

          • They’re not asking you, I am. Do you believe their expansion for why the BCG vaccine isn’t commonly used in the USA, Canada, or western Europe?

          • AutismDadd

            Expansion? WTF are you talkin bout Willis?

          • Sorry, I tried to swype “explanation” and got the wrong word.

          • AutismDadd

            SWYPE? WTF is that?

          • Typing on a smartphone by dragging your finger along the keyboard instead of typing each letter separately.

          • AutismDadd

            Another excuse

          • You’re the one hung up on my spelling mistake to excuse yourself from answering a simple question. How about you cut the excuses and answer the question?

          • AutismDadd

            And if the people ( AMISH) simply don’t vaccinate, you can’t study them? Would you do all Helsinki over that?

          • 1. Most Amish do vaccinate, at least partially.

            2. No, there’s no ethical problem with doing an observational study of voluntarily-unvaccinated people.

            3. The difficulty is in removing other variables besides vaccination. Using the Amish as a control group would introduce major variables like lifestyle, diet, reporting of illness, and so on.

          • AutismDadd

            It would introduce evidence…a big NO NO right?

          • The quality of the evidence depends on the methodology, but evidence is good.

          • AutismDadd

            WHAT? I thought you were Pro-vac?

          • Generally, yes. It’s not my religion, though — if good evidence shows that a vaccine is unsafe, I’ll want its license revoked.

          • AutismDadd

            Then get crackin because they maim and kill

          • Get cracking on what? It’s your hypothesis, not mine.

          • AutismDadd

            You said you’d want their use stopped. Get crackin

          • First there needs to be good evidence that they’re dangerous.

          • AutismDadd

            NVICP can help with that.

          • NVICP stats confirm that vaccines are very safe.

          • AutismDadd

            That’s because they deny 60% of injuries.

          • Not all claims can meet the NVIC’s low standard of evidence, particularly when lawyers benefit from introducing them whether they win or not.

          • AutismDadd

            yea blah blah, its all the lawyers fault now.

          • Sometimes! The fact is that not all claims are payable. Not every plaintiff is entitled to a victory.

          • AutismDadd

            Its no fault, VICTORY isn’t supposed to be the goal. Though we know denying victims is a victory for CDC in its goal to protect the reputation of vaccines.

          • Claiming that somebody has harmed you is not the same as showing that somebody has harmed you. If I sued you for breaking my arm, it would not be enough to show that my arm is broken. I would have to show that it was your fault. If I can’t show that it was your fault, you don’t owe me any damages.

            The NVICP is designed to create a low standard of evidence, not no standard of evidence. Not every petitioner is entitled to damages.

          • AutismDadd

            I don’t believe that. Who creates the list of table injuries? Either these injuries are valid or they aren’t. Those denied are not considered valid. You can’t have both. Those valid have supporting evidence from CDC et al. So vaccine promoters and makers are confessing, its not about pretense, mistakes, no fault or luck. Compensation is based on VACCINE SCIENCE. Wise up!

          • What don’t you believe?

            The Secretary of Health and Human Services creates the list of table injuries.

          • AutismDadd

            Wow. You are clueless. You claim compensation is easy to get and is based on worthless standards. That’s garbage, but thanks for now realizing you were wrong as usual.

          • Huh? Who are you even replying to?

          • AutismDadd

            Ken take your meds

          • I don’t believe that. Who creates the list of table injuries? Either these injuries are valid or they aren’t. Those denied are not considered valid. You can’t have both. Those valid have supporting evidence from CDC et al. So vaccine promoters and makers are confessing, its not about pretense, mistakes, no fault or luck. Compensation is based on VACCINE SCIENCE. Wise up!

            What is it that you don’t believe? The Secretary of Health and Human Services creates the list of table injuries.

          • AutismDadd

            Its obvious you can’t follow along and I must use small words and baby steps with you. But even if I did, you won’t get it because you suffer from some sort of disconnect.

          • So you refuse to answer because you’re frightened of me. Okay, thanks for playing!

          • AutismDadd

            Hardly. You talk in circles like most Pharma Trolls. I get tired of the nonsense.

          • No, you’re afraid to answer very simple questions about what your own opinions are. You’re obviously frightened of me, and it’s kind of sad to watch you make your pathetic little peacock display. Instead of this pitiful posturing, why don’t you just say what you meant?

            A few comments up, you said “I don’t believe that.” What is the “that” that you don’t believe?

          • AutismDadd

            If you aren’t Jonathon Graham, you must be his twin. Talking nonsense steady. I’m not going to be baited into more nonsense from you. That’s my fear, death by boredom.

          • AutismDadd

            Nonsense…just like I said.

          • More evasion and deflection… It’s too bad you don’t even know what your own opinions are!

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c057012286a624a637e8ce816fbb2ae3e19e10a9f8f89497ff01d006edaae9ec.jpg

          • Jonathan Graham

            Talking nonsense steady

            In the rational world people who are able to clearly define their position by answering question like “What do you mean by that?” is an asset. It’s interesting how much around people like you, Lowell and Ron this is anathema.

            I’m not going to be baited into more nonsense

            I think you talk nonsense without much provocation.

          • AutismDadd

            Right on cue, the nonsense machine

          • Jonathan Graham

            Again, it’s reasonable to expect people to be able to clarify their position by answering questions like “What do you mean by that?”.

            It’s entertaining that you think that’s nonsense. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            If I was dealing with a child I would answer those questions. You ask them as part of your nonsense routine and to twist the conversation. Sorry I’m not going to play your games.

          • Jonathan Graham

            When you can’t be dismissive of a salient point you have to switch to belittling the person who’s asking.

            Classic bullying by AutismDadd.

          • AutismDadd

            Thanks, that’s high praise from biggest bully on Disqus.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Must really have your goat that you’ve got to start namecalling to make yourself feel better.

          • AutismDadd

            And here’s the guy always claiming to be truthful, who lies about being a bully, lies about harassment and invents much of his assertions with no evidence. Not sure what he would be dubbed clinically, but he’s no Abe Lincoln

          • Jonathan Graham

            …and you can’t point out where I lie, bully, harass or any of the other names you have to call in order to feel better. The reason: I simply am none of those things.

          • AutismDadd

            You are pathological pal

          • Jonathan Graham

            …and still you can’t point out a one single clear case of me lying. Almost like you’re making it all up. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            Didn’t you say you liked your haircut? That has to be a lie.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Actually I didn’t say that but I don’t mind it at all. Neither does my wife.

          • AutismDadd

            She just feels sorry for you. She must be a good woman

          • AutismDadd

            You are the Queen of Denial

          • Jonathan Graham

            Again it should be easy to point out where I lie, bully or harass. However your inability to do so argues against your point.

        • 655321

          That statement has so many logic defying double standards its almost humorous. Now the pharmaceutical gold standard of double blind placebo testing is human experimentation….but injecting biological agents which have not been tested is not? You should be doing stand up Ken. Solid routine.

          • Except that they have been tested, so…

          • 655321

            No, they haven’t…..

          • Every one of them is tested for safety and efficacy before licensure, so yeah, they have been.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Now the pharmaceutical gold standard of double blind placebo testing is human experimentation….but injecting biological agents which have not been tested is not [routine]? You should be doing stand up Ken. Solid routine.”

            You are drawing incorrect assumptions, Herbert.
            The gold standard is the RDBPC trial, yes, but only in certain circumstances, the main one being that the intervention being tested is completely new, and that there is no other intervention that is in current use. If that were the case, the comparison has to be against the current best available treatment/intervention, rather than a placebo (or the study is grossly unethical). Sort of like Tuskegee was, when an available treatment for syphilis was witheld from a control group who recieved nothing. Remember?

          • 655321

            Only a paid sociopath or a moron would accept their kids being injected as guinea pigs as you are trying to justify.

          • AutismDadd

            So Mike and Jonathon have stepped forward.

          • Gary

            I think they’re volunteering the kids of others, though, rather than their own.

          • Heidi

            Says the person who chooses names of fictional sociopaths. Must be a reason you are drawn to those characters! (By the way,
            one of Herbert West/655321’s upvoters is a Flat Earth believer/gravity denier and doesn’t believe in the Holocaust instead calling it the Holohoax. Color me surprised.)

          • 655321

            Cross dressing Mike?

          • Mike Stevens

            The one with sockpuppets is you, Herbert.

          • 655321

            You’ve established yourself as a sociopath, you want to up it to complete psychosis?

          • Mike Stevens
          • 655321

            Looks like I’m hitting some nerves in shill-ville!!!!

          • Mike Stevens

            Nah…. you are just confirming you are a boring troll.

          • 655321

            Any derogatory connotation from you is a compliment. Really.

          • Mike Stevens

            I haven’t started to become derogatory yet.

          • 655321

            You haven’t become credible yet either.

          • Gary

            Only one? I thought these facts were common knowledge these days?

          • sabelmouse

            who is a fictional psychopath?

          • Heidi

            Herbert West is a character from an HP Lovecraft series of short stories, The Reanimator, and 655321 is the prisoner number of Alex from Clockwork Orange. Both are works of fiction just to be clear.

          • sabelmouse

            thanks.

        • somitcw

          “Doing a blinded experiment would break the international rules for human experimentation, so that’s right out.”.
          .
          If non-therapeutic vaccines are so unproven that it is against “international rules” for you to test them with a double-blind study,
          then why can they be tested on the general public including mostly forced non-therapeutic vaccination of young children?
          .
          To pick a victim city and a placebo city with about the same populations with similar social and economic factors and test using the stated cities first
          compared to
          the current method of testing by forcing children to be assaulted
          would be better, more accurate, and safer testing.
          .
          As for which method is against your “international rules” is unclear until you state what you believe the strange and sick “international rule” is.

          • If non-therapeutic vaccines are so unproven that it is against “international rules” for you to test them with a double-blind study, then why can they be tested on the general public including mostly forced non-therapeutic vaccination of young children?

            That’s the exact opposite of the problem. Vaccines can’t be withheld because they are known to be effective and serve a crucial role in public health. They’re so proven that is against the Helsinki Declaration to withhold them for the purpose of experimentation.

            To pick a victim city and a placebo city with about the same populations with similar social and economic factors and test using the stated cities first
            compared to
            the current method of testing by forcing children to be assaulted
            would be better, more accurate, and safer testing.

            Naturally, you wouldn’t hold the experimenters financially for a penny if the placebo city suffered an outbreak, right..?

        • Jonathan Graham

          IMHO you would end up doing a case-control trial. The thing I always have a problem getting out of people who are critical of vaccines is exactly what level of risk are they comfortable with? Every study with a finite population is going to have a limit at which it can detect an effect. So even if the study shows “no effect”. What it is really saying is: “The effect is likely to be no more than 1 in X”. So what is that threshold for these people? 1 in 1000? 10000? 100000?

          • 1 in N+1.

          • Gary

            It had better be lower than the chances of catching the disease in the first place, which is pretty remote to begin with.Then lower than the fatality rate of the disease, given one has the misfortune of catching it.

            Then the disabilities caused by vaccines can be a worse fate than death (e.g. autism), so reduce the odds by another 1000 or 10000 to take into account the worse consequences of vaccines.

            Vaccinators have pretty much lost their reputation through lying and false claims, so even were vaccinators able to demonstrate a vaccine with an acceptable risk level, its doubtful anyone would believe them. They’ve been caught out too many times.

            At the end of the day, the Creator is wiser than the created. If God had intended us to be vaccinated, we’d fine vaccines in nature.

          • Jonathan Graham

            It had better be lower than the chances of catching the disease in the first place, which is pretty remote to begin with.

            In a vaccinated community or an unvaccinated community?

            Then the disabilities caused by vaccines can be a worse fate than death (e.g. autism)

            How do you know what it’s like to die? Also can you point to a number of autistics who claim they would rather be dead?

            At the end of the day, the Creator is wiser than the created. If God had intended us to be vaccinated, we’d fine vaccines in nature.

            So therefore there is something bad about vaccines? Doesn’t that mean you should stop typing on that machine that The Almighty clearly didn’t intend for you to have?

          • FallsAngel

            Good conclusion, Jon!

            My father was a very strong, fundamentalist-type Christian. At one time,many such Christians didn’t believe in insurance, you were supposed to believe that “God will take care of you”. His response? God gave you the brains to take care of yourself!

          • Jonathan Graham

            That would be my response as well. The Almighty provided them with one of the most adaptable and powerful thinking apparatuses and all they want to do is see who can hold out the longest without using it.

          • AutismDadd

            An apparatus capable of lying and crimes against humanity.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Virtually every tool has the capability to be used to harm people. That’s not a reason to not use a tool. In the case of the brains every positive thing in existence probably is owed to someone’s brain. So it makes sense for people like Gary not to eschew their use.

          • AutismDadd

            And the NEGATIVES in human history? Came from where?

          • Jonathan Graham

            Again, if you try and actually read what I post you would see that I address that. However if you believe that people shouldn’t use their brains…I guess that explains how you get to believe what you do.

          • AutismDadd

            Pretty dumb response. Using your brain can be negative or positive. You can’t stop it. But anyway, your post makes little sense.

          • Jonathan Graham

            You can’t stop it.

            To a point you can. You can for example presume that no useful invention can be made. For if such a invention was intended it would already exist.

            But anyway, your post makes little sense.

            Classic example of you not using your brain.

          • AutismDadd

            Classic example of you attempting to apply logic. Hilarious. Blew up in your face.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Not really. I explained my position clearly and how it actually has something to do with the topic. You can’t produce a similarly clear criticism.

          • AutismDadd

            Don’t need to, you supplied it for me. Again.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Actually yeah, you do need to provide a critique. Otherwise my position stands unchallenged. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            Your position? What, on the throne?

          • Jonathan Graham

            I’ve provided my position, you just need to read it.

          • AutismDadd

            I’ll need an interpreter, I don’t comprehend nonsense and crapola that well.

          • Jonathan Graham

            You don’t read above a grade 10 level that well – by your own admission. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            Never said that. But thanks for the evidence that you lie constantly.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Actually I never said that you said those exact words. Just that you admitted you have at least some trouble with a grade 10 rated text.

          • AutismDadd

            More lying. Just like I said. Mark another “W” under AD

          • Jonathan Graham

            You have admitted that a grade 10 sentence is full of “big words”. That makes my point.

          • AutismDadd

            Doesn’t take much to convince you to jump to conclusions. No wonder you don’t understand vaccine injury.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I’m not jumping to conclusions. I’m simply pointing out that anyone who calls a 10th grade text full of big words betrays a difficulty with the text. Sorry. If you said that about an elementary school text people would see the same issue.

          • AutismDadd

            Yawn. Drone on dude

          • Jonathan Graham

            …and another vague assertion from you.

          • AutismDadd

            You don’t know what drone on means? Oh wait, you must you just dis it…. 🙂

          • Jonathan Graham

            Apparently I know that you were making a vague assertion…

          • AutismDadd

            drone on jon boy

          • Jonathan Graham

            drone on

            Vague (implied) assertion.

          • Ron Roy

            Oh he understands alright he just ignores it.

          • Jonathan Graham

            I understand that the most statistically strong evidence does not support the idea of vaccine injury outside of some rare well-understood cases.

            This is something you can not understand Ron because you have no idea how to weigh evidence statistically.

          • AutismDadd

            Nope. Uber example of your mental stumbling as you try to twist the convo to suit your delusion of grand manure.

          • Jonathan Graham

            As usual I’m clearly pointing out what I’m talking about and you are pretending you have some useful criticism. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            Hilarious. Delusion is in PEAK mode

          • Jonathan Graham

            Nope. As usual you are unable to make your point and I’ve provided a rather clear representation of mine.

          • AutismDadd

            Buh Wah Ha Ha delusion exceeding parameters Captain Kirk.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Yawn, more vague assertions. So again my point is clear and you are unable to make a useful one.

          • AutismDadd

            Hilarious. You are a poor communicator . All this confusion comes from your vague language.

          • Jonathan Graham

            No, my points are pretty clear. If they weren’t you could ask for a clarification on a specific point and I’d answer. But you never do because you are just about making vague assertions.

          • AutismDadd

            More trash talk.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Again, I clearly point out the problem with your claim. If there really was some specific thing you didn’t understand you could ask. You don’t because clarity is not the priority for you. You are just about making vague assertions.

          • AutismDadd

            Nope. Vague assertions in your territory, with a scoop of BS a la mode

          • Jonathan Graham

            …and you just made a vague assertion. Keep it up.

          • AutismDadd

            $hill

          • Jonathan Graham

            $hill

            Vague assertion.

          • AutismDadd

            Freakin $HILL is that better?

          • Jonathan Graham

            Freakin $HILL

            Vague assertion.

          • AutismDadd

            And I would ask you? WHY?

          • Jonathan Graham

            Why you are about making vague assertions? Perhaps because you don’t have anything useful to say.

          • AutismDadd

            I was just thinking that about you. All your blah blah is vague.

          • Jonathan Graham

            All your blah blah is vague.

            Vague assertion.

          • AutismDadd

            Could you be just a little more vague?

          • Jonathan Graham

            I’m pointing out that your statement is a vague assertion. It’s pretty clear and specific. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            Do you mean the colon?

          • Jonathan Graham

            Is that what people who are critical of vaccines use to do their thinking?

          • AutismDadd

            Nope. Go grab a mirror

          • Jonathan Graham

            I was talking about what people who are vaccine critical think with. Then you said: “You mean the colon”. So perhaps you should Read. Think and then Post. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            Nope. You were critical and I assumed you recommended using the colon.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Actually if you read. You’ll see that I was talking about the organ that vaccine critical people think with. You misread.

          • AutismDadd

            Whatever, I used your game and twisted it. Must mean I’m logical and right.

          • Jonathan Graham

            No, you misunderstood what I said and ended up looking kind of silly. Read. Think. Post. You’ll insult people like yourself less. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            I tried your way now I just feel dirty

          • Jonathan Graham

            No, you really haven’t grasped the “read” and “think” parts of “my way” yet. 🙂

          • “The Bible teaches us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go.”
            Cardinal Caesar Baronius (1538-1607) ecclesiastical historian of the RCC, explaining the church’s view of the discoveries of Copernicus and Galileo.

          • AutismDadd

            Yawn (AutismDadd 2016)

          • History of science another subject you aren’t interested in?

          • AutismDadd

            Much to vast and corrupt. The History of Vaccine related Injury lawsuits would.

          • AutismDadd

            Too bad he didn’t pass on his genes.

          • AutismDadd

            He said that to you? Poor man must have been crushed to find out you don’t believe in his mantra.

          • AutismDadd

            How many children become autistic through exposure to measles, mumps or rubella?

          • Jonathan Graham

            No idea but some evidence suggests that maternal infections – including rubella are risk factors.

          • AutismDadd

            So none confirmed

          • Jonathan Graham

            Only in the sense that nothing is confirmed.

          • AutismDadd

            That’s what I said. Facepalm

          • Jonathan Graham

            LOL. Then yours was not a terribly useful statement.

          • AutismDadd

            Wrong. Your lack of ability to understand rears its ugly head again.

          • Jonathan Graham

            No, you already stated that I understood your statement. I merely pointed out that while you can apply a standard of evidence at which nothing is considered confirmed. It’s just not a terribly useful standard. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            A standard you embrace wholeheartedly though. Thanks for the confession

          • Jonathan Graham

            Nope, I believe in using rational and useful standards. Sorry if you couldn’t see that really obvious point I was making. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            You rarely make obvious points. You babble a lot

          • Jonathan Graham

            No, you just like pretending that I do.

          • AutismDadd

            Nope. Be a man and admit it.

          • Jonathan Graham

            As usual, you can only make vague assertions. So yeah, that’s you pretending. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            OK you had you chance to be a man and chose not to exercise that option.

          • Jonathan Graham

            …and more vague assertions from you.

          • AutismDadd

            Nope. You had your chance.

          • Jonathan Graham

            …more vague assertions from you.

          • AutismDadd

            Or your comprehension, which appears to border on delusion

          • Jonathan Graham

            No, your statement was rather provably of low utility. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            Time once again to yawn.

          • AutismDadd

            Sometimes death seems better than reading your posts.

          • Jonathan Graham

            No, Adadd you just like being abusive.

          • AutismDadd

            A perfect example…

          • Jonathan Graham

            Of you being abusive? I’m sure there are lots.

          • AutismDadd

            And then there are your abusive posts to consider.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Please point them out.

          • AutismDadd

            Just close your eyes and point, you’ll find one.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Vague assertion from Autism Dadd. In other words you’ve got nothing.

          • AutismDadd

            If that sounds familiar its because you’ve got nothing too

          • Jonathan Graham

            What I’ve got is Autism Dadd who constantly makes vague assertions and can’t support them.

          • AutismDadd

            While I have Buzz Cut Graham does the same.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Dude if you want a specific thing explained or supported all you have to do is ask. You on the other hand can’t support your vague assertions. Different thing.

          • AutismDadd

            NOPE, you just sidestep and distort.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Thanks for that vague assertion – demonstrating my point.

          • AutismDadd

            And you demonstrate mine. I win

          • Jonathan Graham

            I’m not sidestepping or distorting. If you ask for a specific portion of something I’ve posted to be explained. I have no problem doing that. Sorry.

          • Perfect, irrefutable logic, Gary.

          • shay simmons

            If God had intended us to be vaccinated, we’d fine vaccines in nature.,

            Live in a cave with no electricity or running water, do you?

          • AutismDadd

            Like you?

          • sabelmouse

            not a good analogy. if anything compare to emergency medicine. also not a good analogy as that is a needed intervention rather than meddling with biology/the immune system.

          • shay simmons

            Have you found anything to support your claim yet, sabel?

            http://disq.us/p/1eqgqgr

          • AutismDadd

            Actually they imply neurological harm comes from exposure, so a comparison should be between exposure and vaccine outcomes. How many become autistic from exposure to M, M, or R natuarally? How many from the intervention?

          • Why do you have to lie in order to make your point?

          • Gary

            Why do you accuse those speaking the truth of being liars?

          • Link to where I did that.

            Remember we’re expecting shill gambits to be evidenced and not just labelled.

            You can lie and speak the truth too.

            “2+2 = 5. Also 1+1 = 2. 3+5 = 3012919203. 6+6 = 09-842-3-32949994. 9+ +9 = 3893894838 … ” The presence of the one correct statement (speaking truth) does not negate the several dozen false statements and therefore render that person anything other than a liar.

          • Gary

            Uh, post above? You forgetting your own lies now?

          • shay simmons

            “If God had intended us to be vaccinated, we’d fine vaccines in nature.”

            How does God feel about that PC you’re typing on, Gary?

          • Gary

            I didn’t inject myself with my PC, Shay. 🙂

          • shay simmons

            So some unnatural things are less unnatural than others. Thanks, George.

          • AutismDadd

            Exactly. Many aspects of the Vaccination protocol must be removed from the duties of FDA and CDC before this nightmare will end.

          • AutismDadd

            Many are fine with the risks vaccines have, so that might be considered. Then again you are not choosing randomly because they are all pro-vacs with obvious biases.

          • Jonathan Graham

            What does that have to do with what I wrote.

          • AutismDadd

            Its contrary. I know you hate that. I imagine your kids are brainwashed into agreeing with you or you get snarky.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Its contrary.

            Contrary to what I said? Perhaps you can explain.

          • AutismDadd

            It opposes what you said.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Describe how. I think you just don’t understand what I said.

          • AutismDadd

            No one understands your comments.

          • Jonathan Graham

            So you admit you didn’t understand. Great.

          • AutismDadd

            Why great? That shows you are a poor communicator.

          • Jonathan Graham

            It’s been my assertion that you were just blathering without understanding what I said. Thanks for agreeing.

          • AutismDadd

            More assertion. When I claim you make assertions you say no, and follow up with more assertion.

          • Jonathan Graham

            When I claim you make assertions you say no,

            Oh where do I deny that I ever make assertions. What I deny is that I make vague assertions or assertions which I am unwilling to support. Both hallmarks of your behavior. 🙂

          • AutismDadd

            Clown. You’ll say nope like a dope, deny a previous assertion, then make a new one. Do a meta-analysis of your blathering comments to see the pattern.

          • Jonathan Graham

            You’ll say nope like a dope, deny a previous assertion

            A previous assertion by you. Denying that one of your assertions is true isn’t the same as denying that someone makes assertions. You have little ability other than to make vague assertions and insults.

          • AutismDadd

            I should frame this one.

          • Jonathan Graham

            It does have a lot of your problems illustrated in one post. Might help you.

      • FallsAngel

        It is against the Helsinki Accords to withhold proven medical interventions. We don’t want another Tuskegee incident.

        • dsaulw

          That is why the CDC is supposed to do the study of health outcomes of vaccinated versus unvaccinated populations, to prove that the schedule confers better health rather than damaging it. A study they steadfastly refuse to do.

          And surely you must realize that there is a difference between treating people who already have dangerous diseases and treating healthy people with risky drugs which might prevent them from getting certain infections, most of which are benign, over a certain period of time.

          • FallsAngel

            You. don’t. understand! The CDC, nor any other entity, can do such a study. It is unethical to withhold proven treatment. I don’t know what you don’t understand about that. If a vaccine works, you can’t withhold it for some “study”. You can test a vaccine for a disease for which no vaccine exists against placebo, you can test a different vaccine for some disease against the existing vaccine, but YOU CANNOT WITHHOLD A PROVEN TREATMENT from someone.

          • dsaulw

            Baloney. I and all of my classmates got chicken pox growing up, and it was nothing but a nuisance and nobody lost any sleep over that contingency. I know many people whose kids were seriously harmed from the chicken pox vaccine, though. And chicken pox is not a “disease”, it is a temporary infection which can be readily overcome.

            You keep throwing around terms without defining them. What does it mean that a vaccine “works”? Basically, it means that the body will generate antibodies for some period of time thereafter. It doesn’t mean that it is safe. It doesn’t mean that it will prevent that infection down the road. it most certainly does not mean that its safety has EVER been assessed in conjunction with the whole slew of other vaccines given, because that has never been done. What kind of proof is that???

          • FallsAngel

            A vaccine “working” means it prevents disease. We’ve been talking about polio all morning and now into the afternoon on another Disqus thread. Polio cases went down, like a rock, when the vaccine was introduced. I don’t know if we can post links here. Paste this into your browser, add dots where the spaces are. http://www post-polio org/ir-usa html

            Likewise, Google measles incidence. See how it dropped like a rock after the introduction of the vaccine.

            Of course chickenpox is a disease and prior to the vaccine it killed about 150 people yearly in the US.

            There have been many studies on vaccine safety. I refer you to Google.

          • dsaulw

            I will tell you what. Let me redefine how a disease is diagnosed and I can cure it too. By 100%. Smoke and mirrors.

            Look, if you and others on this thread want to believe the phony government statistics and assertions, have at it.

            I know better by now than to do such a thing and realize that the whole government vaccine program is based on fraud and coercion.

            But I am done here.

          • FallsAngel

            Good.

          • I will tell you what. Let me redefine how a disease is diagnosed and I can cure it too. By 100%. Smoke and mirrors.

            Theoretically, that could work. In reality, that did not happen. It’s a desperate assertion with no evidence behind it.

          • dsaulw
          • I don’t see any citation that actually supports her claim. Why isn’t she showing us anything that actually contrasts polio diagnosis before and after 1955? Just because she says everything changed doesn’t mean she’s telling the truth.

          • dsaulw

            If you want to see all of the references, buy Dr. Humphries’ book. Everything is very meticulously documented.

            https://www.amazon.com/Dissolving-Illusions-Disease-Vaccines-Forgotten/dp/1480216895/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1481420248&sr=1-1&keywords=dissolving+illusions

          • Why do you think she sells books instead of publishing peer-reviewed studies?

            I think it’s because she’s lying. I’m not going to give her money to read lies.

          • dsaulw

            Why do you think she would give up a lucrative career as a respected nephrologist to devote years to researching vaccines and write a book? To make more money?

            No. She has something called a conscience and she is as honest as they come.

          • Yes. To make more money.

          • Mike Stevens

            She also runs a private medical practice – no doubt very lucrative as it will be stuffed full of gullible, open-walletted deluded individuals.

          • FallsAngel

            Using a favorite anit-vax meme, I see “respected” nephrologist. I’d never heard of her until she got into anit-vaxism. She’s a quack of the first order. http://www.skepticalob.com/2014/05/six-red-flags-you-need-to-recognize-to-quack-proof-yourself.html
            She’s #1-6, inclusive.

          • Then why doesn’t she give away her books and supplements for free out of the goodness of her heart? Or even cap it so that she’s earning less than she did as a nephrologist?

            Don’t forget that she doesn’t just write books. She also gives talks.

          • dsaulw

            Well, as it happens, she DOES provide a lot of materials on a complementary basis, including many lectures that you can find on Youtube.

            But more to the point, do you REALLY think that she is making > $300k per year from the proceeds of her books? It is utterly ridiculous to think that she gave up a lucrative career as a respected nephrologist to cash in on royalties from book sales.

            Still further, what on earth is wrong with earning money based on the work that one does? Should she starve instead? Or should she panhandle?

          • Well, that’s what you expect pharma companies and doctors to do, isn’t it?

            Not just the proceeds of her books, no. Books + Supplements + talks? Quite possibly.

          • dsaulw

            Why do you say that I expect pharma companies and doctors to provide their goods and servies at no charge? I never said anything like that and most certainly do not believe that.

            I believe that people should be rewarded for their efforts, provided that no force or fraud is involved. Do you have a problem with that?

          • And how do you define fraud?

            I don’t have a problem with it, no.

            But the problem is that selling a book on the same level as peer-reviewed literature *is* a type of fraud.

          • dsaulw

            I don’t define fraud. That is a legal term that goes back to the common law, at least.

            Here is what Merriam Webster has to say: “intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right”

            So by that standard, the CDC has definitely committed fraud and Humphries has not. Have you seen the documentary Vaxxed? If not, I would suggest that you do so right away.

          • Most of it – though you’re right, I should finish it.

            As for the CDC, check what other countries say.

          • FallsAngel

            Oh, gag me! She’d be better off working as a real doctor, but I guess she got tired of that!

          • Mike Stevens

            Who says she was a “respected” nephrologist?

          • FallsAngel

            Who would waste their hard-earned cash on a book by her? I’d rather buy a murder mystery.

          • dsaulw

            LOL. The history of the government vaccine program IS a murder mystery.

          • dsaulw

            That is all well and good, but as a U.S. citizen, I am more interested in what is happening here at home. And here the news is not so great. Life expectancy just decreased this past year. Kids are much sicker than they were a generation ago. And our infant mortality rates are the worst among developed countries.

          • Yes. Your vaccine schedule is more or less the same as G8 nations though.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7e9b8c7ac84e79de71d44afe9e6924def8ffab0e63bc2e3d4970f1708b4a3655.jpg

            So I wonder…could there be some other factor here?

          • dsaulw

            There could be other factors coming into play, but the U.S. is one of the only countries in the world that gives the Hep B at birth, and that is definitely having a negative impact, including a higher 1st day of life mortality rate.

            The U.S. has also been vaccinating pregnant women in recent years and I am not sure if other countries are doing that.

          • FallsAngel

            Many countries vaccinate for Hep B at birth. Kathy compiled a list, you could do a search of her posts. Many “other countries” recommend pregnant women get vaccinated for Tdap and flu. No country, including the US, vaccinates pg women, that is requires vaccination.

            The reason the US has a higher first day IM rate is that we count every live birth, not just those over a certain weight or gestational age. As for first year IM, lack of access to health care for some is an issue.

          • dsaulw

            I am not going to spend time digging through posts to find out if many other countries are giving Hep B at birth on a routine basis. Even if they were, it is a transparently stupid and dangerous thing to do, to give a vaccine on day one to babies whose mothers are Hep B negative to prevent a disease that is transmitted through sexual activity or IV drug abuse. And where any protection that might be provided would wear off by the time that such risks would come into play. It is medical assault, plain as day.

            And while mandates are definitely a concern, standard practice is also important. Patients are relying upon their doctors to do the right thing and if they are telling them to get Dtap and flu while pregnant, then that is a problem when these vaccines have not been tested for safety on pregnant women.

          • FallsAngel

            So you don’t care enough to look it up! Figures. All of these vaccines have been found to be safe and effective for the uses you discuss. But since you know more than the vast, vast majority of scientists and health professionals world wide, you should let them know they’re wrong and you’re right.

          • dsaulw

            “So you don’t care enough to look it up”

            That comment strikes me as disengenuous, at best. I have spent a fair amount of time providing substantive responses to your comments. My understanding is that most countries do not routinely give the Hep B at birth. If you have a credible, convenient source that says otherwise, I would be happy to take a look at it. But, like I said, even if every country on earth were doing it, it would not make the practice any less asinine.

            Science is not a democracy, thank god, and I can use my own brain to assess what is true, rather than relying on a corrupt government and medical system to tell me what to believe. I will not be browbeaten by others. Medicine has made many major mistakes in the past and it will continue to do so in the future.

            Tell me, why do you feel compelled to defend the failing government vaccine program? Why do you feel compelled to defend any U.S. government program, when everything that entity touches turns to crap? Why reside in an echo-chamber which is only going to foster tunnel vision? Why don’t you check out what the critics of the government vaccine program are saying directly, instead of relying upon others who see it as their job to discredit all of these folks?

          • FallsAngel

            Your understanding is incorrect. Ironically, I was going to suggest you look thorugh my posts as I started such a list, but Kathy added to it and her posts are easier to find as she doesn’t post as much as me b/c she has a family and a job and I’m a retired empty-nester.

            I will give you this link, to the member countries of the European Center for Disease Prevention and Control vaccine schedules. http://vaccine-schedule.ecdc.europa.eu/Pages/Scheduler.aspx You actually have to play around with it to get the information you want, that may be too much for you as you seem to want to be spoon-fed. Bulgaria, Estonia, Lithuania, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Spain all give Hep B at birth, as does Australia and several other countries that Kathy has information on.

            If you think you know more than all the REAL “esteemed” scientists and health care providers of the world, do inform them. And make no mistake, they are the real deal. These critics the AVs tout are all quacks of one type or another. The MDs and DOs have for the most part never worked in pediatrics, family practice, or Infectious Disease. The PhDs usually don’t have PhDs in the proper disciplines to be able to have an iformed opionio, e.g. Hooker, Seneff and others. Even Thompson has a PhD in psychology, which probably means he knows a lot about autism, but not about vaccines. Many of the “doctors” (and you guys always put doctor in front of their names) have NDs and DCs, not MDs or another country’s equivalent of.

          • *One minor quibble:

            Due to some odd historical quirks, surgeons are Misters. Doesn’t mean they’re not medical though.

            See: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1119265/

          • FallsAngel

            Thank you!

          • You’re welcome.

            And this seems as a good a place as any to share it but I made a quick sloppy 5-minute meme from the Be Like Bill generator.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6b593bb3de87a8bfbbaeeb7a2c6c1550f8b583f0e7011e0859de3f1177b19b78.png

          • dsaulw

            No, I am afraid you are the one who is misunderstanding things here. I do NOT want to be spoon-fed information, by you or anyone. But I will only devote a significant amount of time and effort to gather information if my expectation is that I will derive a substantial benefit from doing so. You see, I am still gainfully employed and have spent half of this Sunday working at my job and I am not going to waste my time looking up information that I do not value very much. Even so, you have not really addressed the issue at hand, which is whether these other countries give this vaccine at birth to ALL newborns or to just those newborns whose mothers test positive for Hepatitis B, which I know is a common practice. But, like I said, I would consider the practice of giving this vaccine on a routine basis to be a foolish and criminal action no matter how common it is.

            Since you seem to think that pediatric MD’s are much more reliable sources, you might be interested in this book by Dr. Paul Thomas that just came out a few months ago. His vaccine regimen excludes Hep B and delays MMR and, lo and behold, his patients don’t get autism, unlike the kids who were vaccinated accourding to the CDC schedule. Now how’s that for a coincidence!!

            https://www.amazon.com/Vaccine-Friendly-Plan-Effective-Health-Pregnancy/dp/1101884231/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1481511837&sr=1-1&keywords=paul+thomas+vaccines

          • FallsAngel

            I see you didn’t bother looking at the link I provided you. Big surprise! OK,I’ll take your hand and walk you through this, honey. The countries I listed give ALL infants the Hep B vaccine at birth (except those with medical exemptions). Now, sweetie, there are a number of other European countries that give the birth dose to high-risk infants and start the rest at 2-3 months: Austria, Belgium, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland ( non-UK), Italy, Latvia, Luxembourg, Netherlands and Slovakia. Malta starts the low risk kids at 12 months. Only Denmark, Finland, Hungary, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, Slovenia, Sweden and the UK do not recommend Hep B vaccine for low-risk kids. And that is just for the countries of the European Center for Disease Prevention and Control. Now, sweet-pea, is there anything else I can spoon feed you?

          • FallsAngel
          • Gary

            You don’t need a medical exemption to refuse a vaccine. Not all infants in those countries receive the Hep B vaccine – only those whose parents consent.

          • FallsAngel

            Parents can refuse the vaccine. But the vaccine is RECOMMENDED as I posted. It’s untrue that “France banned Hep B vaccine”, etc, etc, etc.

          • FallsAngel

            Nor am I interested in Thomas’ book. He’s another one who thinks he has some “secret knowledge” the rest of the health care community doesn’t have. We’ve talked about this dipstick before.

          • Mike Stevens

            If your time is precious, I’d suggest that you read validated sources of information that are not commercially sold books published by maverick antivaccine quacks who are running counter to the consensus of 99.99% of the remainder of the medical community.

            If Paul Thomas’s patients genuinely don’t get autism, then it is beholden upon him to publish his analysis in the scientific literature so it can be assessed, scrutinised and replicated. Not to publish results so that others may learn from his experience is a terrible, awful thing to do, conndemning children everywhere to a life of brain damage.
            If he does not do this, but just trots out a bland tretimonial sound bite “My patients don’t have autism!”, then I’d say Caveat Emptor, and I wouldn’t rely on a word he says.

          • dsaulw

            Yes, if you would have read the link, you would have seen that his research is in the process of getting published.

            This name-calling (maverick, anti-vaccine) does not speak well for your side, if that is the best you can come up with. You insult doctors with intelligence and integrity and then hold up as an example the clown and pathological liar Paul Offit. That is not going to persuade anyone who has spent any time evaluating these issues for himself.

          • And your evidence that Paul Offit is a pathological liar and a clown would be what, exactly?

            Be sure to go on things Paul Offit has said and not what someone told you he said.

          • I’d like to see his patients assessed by someone else too because it seems to me that it’d be easy to prevent your own patients from getting a diagnosis of autism even when they *are* autistic….even easier if your patients tend to be homeschooled.

          • AutismDadd

            Next time just print DUH

          • Gary

            Yeah, ’cause science is all about democracy, isn’t it? Lol. Most people are wrong about most things, most of the time. 🙂 So if 99.99% support vaccines, it should tell you something.

          • Mike Stevens

            Right, so we should always believe the minority view…

            Don’t try a round the world trip, because you will fall off the edge….
            Don’t fly, because gravitational theory is wrong….
            Don’t treat your child with antibiotics for meningococcal septicaemia, because germs don’t exist…

            Ok, we get where you are coming from, Gary.
            Your surname isn’t Null, by any chance?

          • Gary

            You have the right idea.

          • AutismDadd

            As I’ve stated repeatedly medical consensus is the same as a conspiracy.

          • Gary

            Like all vaccines, Hep B is pushed on all newborns, not just those with Hep B positive mums. Why waste a sale, not to mention create a patient/victim for future profit?

          • They make you sign a waiver here in the USA if you refuse the hep B for a newborn where in a sane world you would be signing the waiver for electing to have that risky procedure with no benefit performed. Absolute insanity!

          • Gary

            Same in Australia. The wording is of a legal nature so as to convict you of neglect if/when they want to. As always, cross the words, change the wording, don’t sign etc. Nullify the evidence of the charge they want you to confess to. 🙂

          • Mike Stevens

            And he talks about people being in an “echo chamber”?

          • AutismDadd

            What a joke. You would claim nurses and pediatricians are vaccine experts.

          • Gary

            The best vaccine experts are the parents of vaccine damaged children.

          • Gary

            Simple answer. $$$.

          • Mike Stevens

            “I am not going to spend time digging through posts to find out if many other countries are giving Hep B at birth on a routine basis. Even if they were, it is a transparently stupid and dangerous thing to do, to give a vaccine on day one to babies whose mothers are Hep B negative to prevent a disease that is transmitted through sexual ctivity or IV drug abuse.”

            OK, I appreciate you can’t look up every other country’s vax programme. But many countries do vaccinate at birth.
            It is not a dangerous or unnecessary thing to do. In many countries around the world, Hep B affects up to 10% of the population, and protection from birth is highly effective, since it is not just from the mother that infants can become infected, but from contact with others.
            In the USA, there were 12,000-20,000 cases of Hepatitis B in children each year until the vaccination was introduced. Only half of these cases came from the mother. Other seeming innocuous contact within families or with playmates accounts for the remainder.

            Of course the virus is not just transmitted through sex and IV drug use – that is one of the antivaccine myths that is widely touted on the internet and you seem to have fallen for it.

            “And where any protection that might be provided would wear off by the time that such risks would come into play. It is medical assault, plain as day.”

            The protection from Hep B vaccination is now felt to be lifelong. It is recommended that levels are checked periodically, just in case boosters are advised, however,

          • Plus since newborns have the lowest (~10%, irrc) chance of being able to clear the infection and avoid the chronic infection, followed by children between 1 and 5, irrc….it makes sense that the under-5s set are the people who we’re most worried about.

          • Mike Stevens

            Exactly. 90% go on to suffer chronic hepatitis, and 50% get cirrhosis, liver failure or hepatocellular cancer.

            Of course antivaxers don’t care much about that… Since they don’t suffer from it they don’t give the proverbial that others around the world are dying from it in their tens of thousands.

          • FallsAngel

            “OK, I appreciate you can’t look up every other country’s vax programme. But many countries do vaccinate at birth.”

            But, but, but, Mike! Don’t appreciate him/her too much. First I gave it a suggestion to look through Kathy’s posts to find the answer, because, like everyone else my time is important to me and I didn’t want to do it because I have no trouble believing my own posts. Then I gave he/she/it a link to the European Centers for Disease Prevention and Control and h/s/it would open it. So this person does not want information, h/s/it just wants to argue.

          • AutismDadd

            A your proof is where?

          • Gary

            Isn’t that what the Second Amendment is for? Why reach for what you can shoot. 🙂

          • No. There ARE other factors coming into play.

          • dsaulw

            Again with the straw man arguments.

          • Dear, rejecting your argument is not how strawman fallacies work.

            Nor is reductio ad absurdum.

          • Kevin

            Children born after the 1st of May 2000 in Australia receive hepatitis B vaccine
            shortly after birth while they are in hospital and further doses at 2, 4
            and 6 months of age.

          • Al Mather

            Take the IMR of low income inner city African Americans and pre term births out of the US IMR…and rates take a huge decline statistically speaking.. IMR in US is largely socio economic.. higher income brackets ,while fully vaccinated, have IMR similar to those of Finland and Japan.

          • Gary

            Australia does it too.

          • Kevin

            “Kids are much sicker than they were a generation ago” what has that got to do with vaccination? Or are you saying vaccination is making kids sicker?.

          • FallsAngel

            In addition to the fact that it’s untrue.

          • Well, I dunno. Technically, I guess…T1 diabetes kids being alive rather than being in bold on family trees probably doesn’t help the overall health. Still, on the whole, I vastly prefer this scenario to the alternative.

            Nothing to do with vaccines though.

          • FallsAngel

            If you look at it that way, that we do better keeping kids alive, yes. But I would love to see some stats that kids today are “sicker” than a generation ago.

          • Well, they are. It’s just got nothing to do with vaccines.

            Premature babies for example…it’s only recently that they have gotten a chance to become *children*.

            It’s more that sick babies now become sick children rather than buried babies.

          • shay simmons

            I’ve often wondered if it would be possible to do a retrospective study looking at that aspect of it.

          • shay simmons

            Not quite — I mean a study that looked at overall health in American, Canadian or British children that looked at these medically fragile kids- who would not have seen their second birthdays had they not been born in a sophisticated healthcare environment –and separated them out from the general population. It’d be a bear of a study to design, I imagine.

          • Second benefit to doing it outside the US: Avoids squealing about the CDC and FDA…well, we can laugh at anyone who does that anyway.

            Look, I have a list:

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/95e25c72c9da10f780a72073158784ca3e4b0bcba989270c90d96945733e575a.jpg

          • shay simmons

            We laugh at them now.

          • True.

          • AutismDadd

            A graph…wow.

          • AutismDadd

            More like Crimes Against Humanity.

          • One would be better off with The Amityville Horror and Chariots of the Gods?.
            Much more TRVTH in those screeds than in Suzy’s ridiculous delusions.

          • Ron Roy

            Then buy her books you’ll read about how the MEDICAL MAFIA secretly murders people.

          • And yet Suzy remains alive and babbling her konspiracee delusions, protected no doubt, by the aluminum colander she wears on her head to protect against the Chinese microwave mind control beams.

          • Ron Roy

            And yet Reality022 remains alive and babbling his konspiracee delusions,
            protected no doubt, by the aluminum colander he wears on his head to
            protect against the Chinese microwave mind control beams. FTFY

          • Mike Stevens

            This so called medical mafia does seem to be highly inefficient at murdering antivaccine loons, doesn’t it?
            You’d think that for all the billions of dollars it has slushing around in its black ops fund that it could hire a better hit squad.

          • AutismDadd

            Yea more your speed anyway.

          • dsaulw

            This is a complete red herring. Humphries’ book is entirely based on a review of the scientific literature and nobody has claimed that she has misrepresented it somehow. So you are presenting a false dichotomy.

          • Kevin

            Dr Humphries,are you kidding?

          • Dear, it doesn’t matter. It’s Humphries’ job to prove herself right.

          • Mike Stevens

            I claim she has misrepresented it.
            Ok with that?

          • shay simmons
          • dsaulw

            I should have made the following statement instead: to my knowledge, nobody has successfully made the case that Humphries has misrepresented the scientific literature in her book Dissolving Illusions.

            Here is Humphries’ refutation of the objections raised by Isabella. Only one of the 10 points that were raised turned out to be valid and it had already been corrected by the time her review was posted:

            http://drsuzanne.net/2015/10/why-dr-suzanne-humphries-an-anti-vaccine-activist-is-lying-to-you-about-measles/

          • So? It’s Humphries’ job to prove herself correct.

          • AutismDadd

            Where are the junk and trash science lists?

          • FallsAngel

            Suzi is discussing the Cutter incident. It’s not quite what she says, but then we know Suzi lies a lot. I know a lot of people on here don’t like Wikipedia, but they give the best description of the incident here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_Laboratories

            Suzi also claims that FDR had Guillain-Barre. That is up for debate, actually. There are various reasons for and against that diagnosis, the biggest against it being that his paralysis was permanent, which is not usually the case with GBS.. Another Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt's_paralytic_illness

            The fact that there’s a Jenny McCarthy video on that link further undermines its credibility.

            (Agreeing with you.)

          • But, but, but, medical mafia!!!

          • AutismDadd

            It is if you are on the pro-vac side. They changed the DSM just to con the public, then make claims supported by the new DSM. Very WEASEL like.

          • Oh, like when the diagnostic criteria for autism changed and the apparent incidence went up?

            By the way, polio isn’t in the DSM.

          • AutismDadd

            Nice deflection.

          • If we’re done with deflection, how about an actual source for the lie, er, claim that polio diagnosis was changed to trick everybody into thinking polio was going away? Does anybody have any letters, newsletters, journals, instructions, or publications from the 1950s directing doctors to change the way they diagnosed polio?

          • AutismDadd

            Wow NAIVE ALERT!!!! Yea Ken just contact the CDC and they will fax it to you!

          • I didn’t say it needs to come from the CDC, I just want to see evidence. Absence of evidence is not evidence of conspiracy.

            You made an affirmative claim, you back it up. And, as I said, polio is not in the DSM. Never has been.

          • AutismDadd

            Oh but vaccines save MILLIONS of lives is stated w/o any way to confirm it. Vaccines eradicated smallpox. OK Ken lets have the science proving that, not the industry anecdotes.

          • Nice deflection. We can get to that after you show me some evidence that the diagnostic criteria for polio have changed.

            Do you have any evidence that the diagnostic criteria for polio have changed?

          • AutismDadd

            IF I had claimed that, which I didn’t.

          • It is if you are on the pro-vac side. They changed the DSM just to con the public, then make claims supported by the new DSM. Very WEASEL like.

            You said this in response to a comment about polio diagnosis. Did you mean something else?

          • Here’s some stuff I found re: smallpox and vaccination, by the way:

            Sanitation or Vaccination (1902). BMJ, 2(2166), 69–70. doi:10.1136/bmj.2.2166.69

            http://www.bmj.com/content/2/2166/69

            From page 70:

            Small-pox Attack-Rates in the Vaccinated and Unvaccinated.
            As shown elsewhere in this issue of the JOURNAL the attack-rates of small-pox are much higher among the unvaccinated than among the vaccinated. Sanitation cannot account for this difference. It is observed in populations like (Gloucester and Leicester, where vaccination is much neglected and where the vaccinated and the unvaccinated live under the same sanitary or insanitary conditions, belong to the same classes of the community, and are similar in house accommodation, and have the same water supply, sewerage, refuse removal, and all other things which make up the sanitary administration of a town.
            The difference between the attack-rate in the vaccinated and the unvaccinated is specially great in children under ten years. It is part of the modern doctrine of vaccination that its protective power diminishes as the length of time increases from the performance of the protective operation. This diminution shows itself in a dift back towards susceptibility to attack by small-pox. Ultimately the protection against death by small-pox also diminishes among the vaccinated, though not to the same extent as protection against attack. Sanitation cannot account for this special difference between the attack-rates of vaccinated and unvaccinated children as compared with the lesser difference between once-vaccinated and unvaccinated adults.

            Filho, E. S. de C., Morris, L., de Lemos, A. L., de Leon, J. P., Escobar, A., & de Silva, O. J. (1970). Smallpox eradication in Brazil, 1967-69. Bulletin of the World Health Organization, 43(6), 797–807.

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427806/

            From page 805:

            Vaccine efficacy

            An appraisal of the efficacy of smallpox vaccine was based on surveillance data from 22 outbreaks in Paraná, Bahia, Minas Gerais, and Rio Grande do Sul. Smallpox cases were recorded in 351 households during the 22 epidemiological investigations. In the households there were 1799 contacts who had never suffered from smallpox. Of these contacts, 1376 were unvaccinated, and cases occured in 1010 of them, giving an attack rate of 73.4%. Of the 423 contacts who had previously been successfully vaccinated, only 18 (4.3%) contracted smallpox. The reduction in expected cases among the vaccinated was 94%.

            Ladnyi, I. D., Jezek, Z., Fenner, F., Henderson, D. A., Arita, I., & World Health Organization. (1988). Smallpox and its eradication.

            http://apps.who.int/iris/handle/10665/39485

            From page 813:

            With data available regarding the vaccination status of the population as a whole, it was possible to calculate vaccine-efficacy ratios by age based on vaccination at some time in the past (WHO/SE/69.11, Thomas et al.). The ratios showed 94-9694 protection for those aged up to 14 years; 89O/, for those aged 15-24 years ; and 74O/, for those aged 25 years and more. The ratios were remarkably high, although not so great as those found in South America, in which only the mild variola minor variety of smallpox was present.

          • AutismDadd

            I guess you can’t fathom that anything can be written w/o actually proving it. And your references are from pro-vaccine sources, which are highly biased and suspect.

          • That’s a pretty convenient excuse for selectively ignoring any evidence you don’t want to see or address. Would you trust the British Medical Journal, Filho, and Fenner if they had made YouTube videos instead?

          • Gary

            Uh – a change in the definition of polio is the evidence, genius.

          • Repeating a claim isn’t evidence. Telling a lie twice doesn’t make it true.

          • Gary

            Here’s a link to the CDC’s website for a current example.

            https://www.cdc.gov/acute-flaccid-myelitis/faqs.html

            They’re calling it “acute flaccid myelitis” these days. Lol. Polio by any other name is still polio. Vaccines didn’t cure it by changing its name. 🙂

          • “Acute flaccid myelitis” isn’t polio, no matter how many times you claim that it is. It appears to be caused by a similar virus, but AFM patients are not infected with polio.

          • Mike Stevens

            And where are all the hospital wards with iron lungs, or paediatric ITUs filled with kids ventilated for “myelitis”?

          • somitcw

            Yes, the allopaths back then did use negative pressure iron lungs instead of the more modern positive pressure tubes.
            Allopaths try to pull in as much money as they can sell their victims on.
            .
            Allopaths also put casts of children with viral polio and kept the children cold to try to cause the paralysis to be permanent.
            Really some sick people then but they are worse today.
            .
            Thankfully, our mandate to treat all human waste in the 1950s ended the ability for viral polio to spread except for viral polio from the non-therapeutic vaccines.

          • Gary

            Dunno. My kids aren’t vaccinated, so’s I’m guessing they’re not going to suffer any vaccine induced illnesses. You tell me.

          • Mike Stevens

            They aren’t needed, because polio has been eradicated from almost every country in the world.
            See, the answer was easy.

          • Mike Stevens

            Well, surely even someone with your intellectual gifts can realise that when a disease is found not to be caused by the poliovirus, then it is not labelled as being due to polio?

          • Gary

            Lol. The disease has symptoms similar to polio, but unlike polio, it doesn’t have a vaccine yet.

            What a convenient way to maintain sales of the polio vaccine. If you are vaccinated for polio but still get polio, its not polio, but “acute flaccid myelitis”. They do the same with pertussis and measles, also.

          • Mike Stevens

            You can only be diagnosed with polio if routine diagnostic stool sampling reveals polio virus, Gary.
            It’s not rocket science.

          • Jonathan Graham

            What a convenient way to maintain sales of the polio vaccine. If you are vaccinated for polio but still get polio, its not polio, but “acute flaccid myelitis”.

            Wait. What?! So someone gets the polio vaccine and later gets NPAFP – how exactly does that keep the sales of polio vaccine up?

          • Gary

            Well, if they admitted AFP were actually polio, some of the sheep may put two and two together and work out that the polio vaccine doesn’t do the one thing its supposed to do (in addition to causing all the other problems its not supposed to cause).

          • Jonathan Graham

            Well, if they admitted AFP were actually polio,

            In what sense is a virus that is not a poliovirus, polio.

            some of the sheep may put two and two together and work out that the polio vaccine doesn’t do the one thing its supposed to do

            Do you think doctors need to tell people that the rubella vaccine doesn’t protect against influenza?

          • Gary

            Same result, perhaps? People don’t care what you call it, they don’t want their kids to end up disabled. So if you come up with a vaccine for polio, and the same number of kids are still ending up disabled by a disease, but you’ve simply changed the name of the disease to AFP, that’s not a real cure.

            A Machiavellian plot, yes, but certainly not a real cure.

            If the rubella vaccine only protects against several out of many strains of rubella, if there is a significant risk of developing arthritis, diabetes or chronic fatigue syndrome from the vaccine, if the rubella vaccine was developed using cells from aborted children, these are all facts doctors should be communicating to their patients about this drug before administering it.

          • Jonathan Graham

            So if you come up with a vaccine for polio, and the same number of kids are still ending up disabled by a disease

            Which is neither the case here nor anywhere really

            , but you’ve simply changed the name of the disease to AFP

            No the word “polio” references an etiology as does NPAFP.

            that’s not a real cure.

            Cures are treatments given AFTER acquisition of a disease. Vaccines are sometimes given thereputically but they are generally given as prophylaxis.

            Let me know when you can make your point.

          • Ron Roy

            The number of vaccine attributed polio victims in India is anywhere between
            30,000 to 300,000 according to media reports. The IMA has a figure of
            85,000, up to 2005, in its website. Doctors have
            been “advised” to keep quiet on these issues for “the greater good of humanity”.

            It is very sad that no effort is
            being made to track, treat and compensate the unfortunate children. GAVI,
            UNICEF, Rotary and WHO do not reply to our mails making it plainly evident that
            they are least bothered about the health of Indian children. Shame upon them who
            wish to profit by killing and maiming little babies.

            It is very disturbing that poisons
            are being introduced into infants who are not supposed to be fed anything other
            than breastmilk during the first six months of their lives. The spread of
            cancers, diabetes and other immune disorders in children cannot be hidden any
            longer. Countries putting the maximum emphasis on vaccines have the highest rate
            of infant mortality. The health of teenagers today is alarming.

            We also do not understand how the
            voices of Indian doctors are not being heard and instead “foreign experts”
            dictate terms in matters of vaccination policy in India. Who are these “experts”
            and what influence do they yield to dictate terms? What are these “experts”
            doing to ensure compensation and treatment for the millions of vaccine damaged
            children? What are they doing to educate the public about vaccine dangers?

            You cannot take the “First do no
            harm” medical oath and push vaccines at the same time. This is ludicrous. This
            is madness. This is utter stupidity. – Jagannath
            THE POLITICS OF VACCINATION-II
            The Policy Of Forcing Hepatitis-B And Hib Vaccines On India And Pressure To
            Eradicate Polio— DR OMESH BHARATI

            BBC Admits Dark Side to Bill Gates’s Polio Project Ahead of Dimbelby Lecture

            Bill-gates_reut
            BBC forced to admit dark side to Bill Gates’s polio project ahead of lecture. (photo credit Reuters)

            By John Stone

            Ahead of tonight’s prestigious Dimbleby lecture by Bill Gates the BBC has been forced to acknowledge that there are serious concerns about the safety and usefulness of Gates’s polio project. In an apparently upbeat article ‘The world can defeat polio’ the BBC’s Medical Correspondent, Fergus Walsh, slips in a reference to the work of Jacob Puliyel quote in AoA last week. The abstract to the paper by Vashisht and Puliyel in the Indian Journal of Medical Ethics states:

            It was hoped that following polio eradication, immunisation could be stopped. However the synthesis of polio virus in 2002, made eradication impossible. It is argued that getting poor countries to expend their scarce resources on an impossible dream over the last 10 years was unethical. Furthermore, while India has been polio-free for a year, there has been a huge increase in non-polio acute flaccid paralysis (NPAFP). In 2011, there were an extra 47,500 new cases of NPAFP. Clinically indistinguishable from polio paralysis but twice as deadly, the incidence of NPAFP was directly proportional to doses of oral polio received. Though this data was collected within the polio surveillance system, it was not investigated. The principle of primum-non-nocere was violated. The authors suggest that the huge bill of US$ 8 billion spent on the programme, is a small sum to pay if the world learns to be wary of such vertical programmes in the future.

            Clearly, what should occur is an open public debate about these issues rather than just taking the word of the world’s most successful salesperson. Last week Gates told the Daily Telegraph: “The golden rule that all lives have equal value and we should treat people as we would like to be treated.” But the reality is that the golden rule applies neither at the level of open debate (the opposition is shouted down) or the children horrifically injured in pursuit of alleged greater good. There is no indication that he is doing anything but continuing to act high handedly, and his words should be treated with as much suspicion as before.

          • Jonathan Graham

            The number of vaccine attributed polio victims in India is

            probably a made up number. Especially since you can’t say how these were attributed to the vaccine.

          • Ron Roy

            Oh I see when Johnny doesn’t like a ” number ” it’s a made up number. Yeah right. Gee I though you liked numbers.

          • Jonathan Graham

            All I’m doing Ron is pointing out the question that you are too gullible to ask. How is this figure calculated? Since the term “attributed” is excessively broad any number could be justified. Thus any number is going to be made up.

          • AutismDadd

            He likes the numbers on his xmas bonus check from Pharm

          • Ron Roy

            Pasty he’s made his point and I understand it. You on the other hand are paid to pretend you don’t understand it and we get that.

          • Jonathan Graham

            What is his point Ron?

          • AutismDadd

            Yep. Vaccines trade one set of problems for another set.

          • Ron Roy

            An evil corrupt genius.

          • Gary

            I was being sarcastic. Perhaps I should have used “Einstein” instead, as that wouldn’t have been sarcasm. 🙂

          • Al Mather

            If Einstein was such a meager intellect in theoretical physicsin your eyes Gary… as you’ve often expressed…I’m curious what physicist YOU might look to as brilliant, or genius,or at least respectable….if anyone?

          • Gary

            Tesla. Or anyone else who actually accomplished something for mankind, rather than making up just-so stories to set him back a century.

          • Al Mather

            Tesla… didn’t he believe that Mars was inhabited by intelligent beings? I think he actually claimed radio contact with them. I would have guessed HE would be your guy.

            Smart guy for sure. He WAS great with electronics. Not the AC pioneer the interweb mythology portrays him as… but groundbreaking in designs for it.
            Sounds like he was kind of confused about atoms, sub atomic particles, and their energy potential though.

            He had a few interesting theories on the make up of the cosmos, on our solar system, and the sun… that I would imagine fly in the face of your flat earth trumpery.

          • Gary

            Tesla was right about far more than Einstein, that’s for sure. If he’d had access to the information available today, I’m sure he’d have agreed the Earth is indeed flat.

            And whatever people say about him, we probably wouldn’t be using AC electricity today if not for Tesla.

          • Al Mather

            The belief that Tesla is solely responsible …or even the first to introduce viable AC is all part of the Tesla Interweb Mythology getting served these days… Ferraris had already introduced his in Europe.. Westinghouse already had decided on AC and had his engineers designing building AC motors.. Ferraris published his work first for the world and never patented… Tesla filed patents. Tesla claims it as his.
            REALITY is a number of engineers and entrepreneurs were all about to arrive at the finish line within months… Tesla …under Westinghouse..”proclaimed” himself the winner.

            “Tesla was right about far more than Einstein, that’s for sure. If he’d had access to the information available today, I’m sure he’d have agreed the Earth is indeed flat. “

          • AutismDadd

            Buttcrack is more accurate when describing Ken.S

          • Gary

            You made me laugh. Ken thinks a quick phone call to the CDC can yield a signed confession about their medical fraud. 🙂

          • Yes. GBS nd Polio are about as alike as a Lambourghini and a Go-Kart. They both have four wheels and and are both transportation.

            AFP is a symptom. Polio is a disease.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/aba84a529c0244ac918f45d66adb3b89bcf8ef431c7b4e4cf4cb586c55f035eb.jpg
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/39b2eaf8a35a001da463270e0047b703cb41da9411d39f96ef3f5475a340c593.jpg

            And you might be surprised to find that pro-vaccine advocates on the whole do think that the choice not to vaccinate should be legislatively guaranteed – nobody wants you to be held down and forced to vaccinate.

          • dsaulw

            That is not the point. The changes to the diagnostic criteria might make sense, but making that type of change makes the incidence post-change uncomparable to the incidence pre-change. Yet that is never disclosed. They are just gaming the numbers.

          • Then you’ll have evidence.

            GBS and Polio have always been different.

          • No, that’s what the definition has always been. It’s not my fault if nobody told you that.

          • What about all the other goverment programs?

          • dsaulw

            Most of them, too, work in ways that are counter to their stated objectives over the long term.

          • Evidence?

          • dsaulw

            I am not going to spend time here providing links, because all you really need to do is open your eyes to see the failures all around you.

            Markedly declining children’s health, runaway health care costs, astronomical unfunded liabilities for Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, stagnant economic growth, high unemployment, massive increase in food stamp utilization, poor educational outcomes, massive student loan debt.

            I could go on and on, but really how much more evidence does one need to see that our government programs are failing right and left?

          • Mike Stevens

            If vaccines are so lethal to children, then why has the infant mortality rate in the USA fallen to a sixth of its former rate coincident with the deployment of the childhood vaccination schedule?
            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/97bfd82de343d1d2a939841c4d6a9819a21e9d0879302d840037c2a2d0f1d5ca.jpg

          • dsaulw

            Mike, as your side is so happy to repeat ad nauseum, correlation does not equal causation!!!

          • Mike Stevens

            Your “side” says vaccines increase child mortality.
            All I do is show that the opposite seems to be a valid conclusion, based upon the available evidence. Correlative the graph may be, but can you explain why the correlation is an inverse one, and not what your “side” claims it should be?

          • Of course, it is possible that there are other changes accounting for it and overwhelming the vaccine effect such as….oh, I don’t know, fewer mothers who smoke.

            But dsaulw would need to show that.

          • Gary

            Lol. Correlation does not equal causation (unless it supports our vaccination program).

          • Plausible methods, you know about this.

          • Which goverment? There’s more than one country in the world!

            Evidence you cannot or will not produce is functionally equivalent to no evidence at all. And that which can be asserted with zero evidence can be dismissed with precisely the same amount of evidence: zilch.

          • dsaulw

            Again, another straw man, because I never said anything about GMO’s. If you want to debate someone, then you should really argue with what they have said, rather than bring in all sorts of tangential material.

          • Sigh.

            No, it is a demonstration of how universal widespread fraud can be empirically demonstrated. It just so happens to use GMOs as an example, that’s all.

          • Which goverment is giving out the phony stats?

          • Ron Roy

            The polio epidemic was almost over when the vaccine came out so in order to
            inflate the numbers the medical mafia started calling all diseases that were
            similar as polio. Then after everyone was vaccinated they went back into calling
            those other diseases what they really were to make it look like the vaccine
            worked. That vaccine was contaminated with 40 different microorganism that
            didn’t belong there on of them was Simian Virus40 a cancer causing virus that is
            now part of our genome. Since only 1 or 2% of the people diagnosed with polio
            had any residual paralysis that was a lousy trade off. Eliminating sugars and
            taking a few grams of vitamin C per day is just as effective at preventing
            polio.

          • FallsAngel

            That’s baloney.

          • Ron Roy

            Great answer. Those night classes are finally paying off. NOT!

          • Ron Roy

            You should know about baloney you spread it around like it was in a more viscous form.

          • Gary

            I think you will find that facts are the opposite of baloney.

          • So where did you copy and paste that from? You obviously didn’t write it, since you didn’t bother to fix the formatting.

          • shay simmons

            Don’t be silly. Ron the Plagiarist almost never provides his sources.

            (He’s afraid we might actually go and read them).

          • AutismDadd

            Google threatened a while back to NOT link to vaccine critical sites. So Google may be corrupt.

          • Of course, those for who it was more than a nuisance aren’t going to be able to post about it.

          • shay simmons

            I and all of my classmates got chicken pox growing up, and it was nothing but a nuisance and nobody lost any sleep over that contingency.

            Three of us had it at once; my mother almost had a nervous breakdown trying to keep us from scratching our spots open.

            If you think chickenpox was a nuisance, wait till shingles shows up.

          • shay simmons

            I and all of my classmates got chicken pox growing up, and it was nothing but a nuisance and nobody lost any sleep over that contingency.

            Three of us had it at once; my mother almost had a nervous breakdown trying to keep us from scratching our spots open.

            If you think chickenpox was a nuisance, wait till shingles shows up.

          • Kevin

            Hi,yeah tell me about it,6 weeks of pain starting around my left eye, it was like a razor cutting around it and painful rash down my left rib cage for 6 weeks,nuisance,yeah.

          • shay simmons

            But you got natural immunity from the chicken pox! Wasn’t it worth it?

            //snark//

          • Kevin

            NO FRIGGIN WAY!

          • Gary

            Shingles is more common in the vaccinated, isn’t it? 🙂

          • shay simmons
          • Mike Stevens

            “Shingles is more common in the vaccinated, isn’t it? :)”

            Not at all.
            What on earth gave you that idea?

          • Ron Roy

            The Birth of an Epidemic

            Now, 15 years into the mass use of chickenpox (varicella) vaccine , there are signs a shingles epidemic is underway.

            This is not surprising when you consider that the mechanism keeping
            shingles largely at bay has been drastically reduced, if not eliminated
            because older children and adults are no longer coming into contact with
            younger children experiencing chickenpox and there is less and less
            natural “boosting” of immunity occurring in our population.

            The natural “herd” immunity to chickenpox among Americans is being
            lost and we are becoming vaccine dependent. PLUS a shingles epidemic is
            taking shape.

            Research done by Gary S. Goldman, Ph.D. who served for eight years as
            a Research Analyst with the Varicella Active Surveillance Project in
            Los Angeles County with funding from the CDC, revealed higher rates of
            shingles in Americans since the government’s 1995 recommendation that
            all children receive chickenpox vaccine.7

          • Mike Stevens

            So… Shingles is NOT “more common in the vaccinated”!
            Exactly my point!

            But your twist on the facts is misleading.
            In fact the loss of “natural immune boosting” in the elderly because of lack of chickenpox in children has not been a significant outcome of vaccination.
            In fact there is a temporary increase in cases in the 30-40 yr old age group, not the elderly.
            Studies elsewhere have suggested this.
            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26259874

            The use of chickenpox-infected kids to try and stop granny getting shingles is not only immoral and disgusting, but unlikely to work.
            Granny can get a shingles shot if she wants, not hope that little Ronnie junior gets a life threatening disease just to help her avoid shingles.

          • Ron Roy

            More people are coming down with shingles because of vaccines.

          • Proponent

            dsaulw: ” it most certainly does not mean that its safety has EVER been assessed in conjunction with the whole slew of other vaccines given, because that has never been done.”

            Incorrect..

            FDA | “Vaccine Product Approval Process”

            And more to the point..

            Vaccinate Your Baby | “Too Many Vaccines?”

            “Finally, all vaccines are subjected to concomitant studies before they are approved for use, meaning that all new vaccines must be tested in conjunction with existing ones to ensure there are no negative interactions. Regulatory agencies such as the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) are careful to look for any side effects associated with concomitant use before approving a new vaccine.”

            “A handy list of papers, proving how comprehensively vaccines are tested before they can be licensed” can be found at:

            Just the Vax | “Vaccine Trials: Methods and Best Practices”

          • Ron Roy

            They could conduct these studies on animals. Which I don’t approve of by the way. Oh and use animals that don’t produce thier own vitamin C. Using animals that can is one of the dirty little secrets of the drug industry.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Using animals that can is one of the dirty little secrets of the drug industry.

            It’s apparently a secret from you too. Since people like yourself can’t tell us ANYTHING about the effect of this magical biosynthesis of ascorbic acid. Other I suppose than it’s magical and you insist it invalidates research on toxicity based on…well nothing. As opposed to knowing it’s effect size and then being able to demonstrate that it confounds result. However you would never want to know that information because then it would be easy to show that your objection is just nonsense. Yawn.

          • Ron Roy

            Chemistry

            Ar-Bo

            Ascorbic Acid – Chemistry Encyclopedia

            Ascorbic Acid

            Ascorbic acid or

            vitamin

            C is an

            antiscorbutic

            agent. Scurvy is a disease that potentially ranks as the second most
            important nutritional deficiency, after protein-calorie malnutrition.
            Scurvy, once common in among sailors, causes bleeding and inflamed gums,
            loose teeth, poor wound healing, pain in the joints, muscle wasting, etc.
            The structure of vitamin C is simple (see Figure 1), resembling a
            monosaccharide, and most animals are able to synthesize ascorbic acid.
            Only primates, guinea pigs, and some fruit bats have lost the ability to
            synthesize it.

            Vitamins are organic molecules that mainly function as catalysts for
            reactions in the body. A

            catalyst

            is a substance that allows a chemical reaction to occur using less energy
            and less time than it would take under normal conditions.

            Vitamin C is water-soluble and very important to all humans because it is
            vital to the production of collagen. Inside the cell, it helps form a

            precursor molecule

            called “procollagen” that is later packaged and modified
            into collagen outside the cell. Collagen is a gluelike substance that
            binds cells together to form tissues. It is the most abundant of the
            fibers contained in connective tissues. Connective tissue gives the human
            body form and supports its organs.

            Figure 1. Ascorbic acid (vitamin C).

            Vitamin C is also important as it helps protect the fat-soluble vitamins A
            and E, as well as fatty acids from

            oxidation

            . It is therefore a

            reducing agent

            and scavenger of radicals (sink of radicals). Radicals, molecules with
            unpaired electrons, are very harmful to the body as a result of their high
            reactivity, which may induce mutations and possibly cancer. Vitamin C,
            being an excellent source of electrons, can therefore donate electrons to
            free radicals such as hydroxyl and superoxide and quench their reactivity.

            A debate exists over the anticancer properties of vitamin C. However,
            current evidence suggests that the major benefit of ascorbic acid with
            regard to cancer may be in reducing the risk of developing cancer, rather
            than in therapy. Vitamin C can work inside the cells to protect

            DNA

            (deoxyribonucleic acid), the hereditary material in cells, from the
            damage caused by free radicals. Also, it can reduce the development of
            nitrosamines (amines linked to the NO group) from nitrates, chemicals that
            are commonly used in processed foods. Once formed, nitrosamine can become
            carcinogenic (cancer-causing).

            Sources of vitamin C are numerous: citrus fruits such as oranges, limes,
            and grapefruits and vegetables including tomatoes, green peppers,
            potatoes, and many others. The recommended dietary allowance (RDA) of
            vitamin C is 60 milligrams (0.0021 ounces) per day. An average American
            ingests about 72 milligrams (0.0025 ounces) a day. Some studies suggest
            higher daily doses especially for the elderly, women, and the infirm. For
            example, the late Linus Pauling, best known for his theory on chemical
            bonding and a two-time Nobel Prize winner, consumed several grams of
            vitamin C per day for the last forty years of his life and lived to age
            ninety-three.

            SEE ALSO

            Catalysis and Catalysts

            ;

            Pauling, Linus

            .

            Joseph Bariyanga

            Bibliography

            Meisenberg, Gerhard, and Simmons, William H. (1998).

            Principles of Medical Biochemistry.

            St Louis, MO: Mosby.

            Also read article about Ascorbic Acid from Wikipedia

            User Contributions:

            1

            Ron Kirkpatrick

            Nov 5, 2015 @ 11:11 am

            How should ascorbic acid be stored ? What is its shelf life when stored properly ?

            Comment about this article, ask questions, or add new information about this topic:

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            Ascorbic Acid – Chemistry Encyclopedia forum

            © 2016 Advameg, Inc.

            Read more: http://www.chemistryexplained.com/Ar-Bo/Ascorbic-Acid.html#ixzz4SdLs5ZZh

          • Jonathan Graham

            So again. No information as to the magical aluminum removing effect of ascorbic acid.

          • Ron Roy

            [ Intravenous Vitamin C Therapy ]

            Intravenous Vitamin C

            Vitamin C is an essential nutrient for the functioning of
            many systems in the body. When given as an intravenous therapy, it is
            critical for healing certain diseases. It is used in the immune system,
            endocrine system, antioxidant enzymes, detoxification system, lipid
            metabolism, collagen tissue formation and absorption of iron. With so
            many key uses in the body, physicians have been using high doses of
            vitamin C for many years in the oral and intravenous delivery to reverse
            acute and chronic disease. At Meditrine Clinic, intravenous vitamin C
            therapy is considered to be critical for toxicity and immune deficiency
            syndromes because it appears to be a universal antitoxin. Studies have
            shown vitamin C can neutralize many bacterial toxins…including
            tetanus, diphtheria and snake venom. It can even neutralize strychnine!
            As an antioxidant, vitamin C helps protect cells from damage caused by
            free radicals, it can remove toxic metals from the body including lead,
            mercury and aluminum.

            Vitamin C by intravenous therapy was originally pioneered by
            Dr. Fredrick Klenner in the 1950’s. He showed that vitamin C in
            intravenous doses could prevent the fatal effects of many serious
            diseases such as viral meningitis, insect stings and polio. Since the
            work of Dr. Klenner, many other physicians have reproduced this work
            with similar findings. Some physicians use a dose of up to 200 gms/day
            of vitamin C by intravenous therapy for treating serious diseases like
            cancer and HIV.

            Dr. Bennett uses a 25 gm/500 ml sterile water dose as a general
            treatment. Higher doses are given, but careful examination of the
            patient precedes the higher dose therapy.

            Functions Of Vitamin C

            Collagen synthesis: hydroxylation of lysine, essential
            for the hydroxylysine cross-links in collagen. Ascorbic acid acts as a
            reducing agent and keeps both of the above enzymes active. These
            connective tissues include cartilage, dentin, skin, and bones.

            Norepinephrine (adrenaline) synthesis: Injections of
            vitamin C into the brain increases the conversion of dopamine to
            epinephrine. It may be valuable in the treatment of schizophrenia,
            chorea, dyskinesia. Some researchers have noted that schizophrenics
            metabolize vitamin C 10x faster than normal.

            Aids the absorption of iron: Vitamin C works by
            reducing ferric iron to ferrous iron. It works best when taken with
            foods containing iron or iron supplements. In addition it blocks the
            degradation of ferritin to hemosiderin, a form of iron storage that is a
            considerably less bioavailable form. It thus provides a more easily
            available source of iron. • Steroid hormone synthesis: ACTH stimulation
            causes marked loss of ascorbic acid from the adrenal cortex. ACTH is
            primarily involved with glucocorticoids-cortisol.

            Antioxidant: Vitamin C is a powerful reducing agent and
            seems to work synergistically with other antioxidants such as
            glutathione and vitamin E. At the branched sites of arteries where
            atherosclerotic plagues are the most abundant vitamin C levels are the
            lowest.

            Drug metabolism and detoxification

            Carnitine synthesis

            Degradation of cholesterol

            Regulates cellular humoral immune function and increase macrophage activityy

            Cancer prevention

            Activates certain vitamins into their active forms:
            conversion of folacin to tetrahydrofolic acid, tryptophan to
            5-hydroxytryptophan and eventually serotonin.

            Antihistamine effects: at doses over 6-8 g q.d.

            Indications For Intravenous Vitamin C

            Allergies

            Anti-inflammatory

            Cancer

            Cataracts

            Macular Degeneration

            Diabetes mellitus

            Gout

            Heavy metal detox

            Stress

            Viral or Bacterial infection

            Post surgical ound healing

            Intravenous Vitamin C And Heavy Metal Detoxification

            Lead – Vitamin C has been shown to be as effective as EDTA in chelating lead from the body.

            Mercury – Megadoses of vitamin C is
            effective in mercurial poisoning. One scientist noted that if guinea
            pigs were given a preventative dose of vitamin C, instead of 100% dying
            from mercuric chloride poisoning, 40% survived. When you translate the
            body weight of a guinea pig to a human, the doses required to provide
            protection are about 35 gms/day. Up until the late 1960’s, vitamin C was
            the treatment of choice in fatal poisonings by mercury.

            Intravenous Vitamin C and Cancer

            Ascorbic acid and its salts are preferentially toxic to
            tumor cells in vitro and in vivo. Given in high enough doses to maintain
            plasma concentrations above levels that have been shown to be toxic to
            tumor cells in vitro, Ascorbic acid has the potential to selectively
            kill tumor cells in a manner similar to other tumor cytotoxic
            chemotherapeutic agents. Many studies of ascorbic acid and cancer to
            date have not utilized high enough doses of AA to maintain tumor
            cytotoxic plasma concentrations of AA.

            References:

            Riordan NH, Riordan HD, Meng X, Li Y, Jackson JA Intravenous
            ascorbate as a tumor cytotoxic chemotherapeutic agent. Med Hypotheses
            44 (3): 207-213 (Mar 1995)

          • Jonathan Graham

            Yawn this is just some random “block of wood” saying that it can remove aluminum. No research to support that and no mention of effect size. So, in other words you’re just quoting someone else who’s making something up.

          • Ron Roy

            Yawn? That what a dog does when he’s nervous of anxious. Block of wood???? Emmmm That’s you Johnny. Now come up with a scientific rebuttal or two and then tell me which one is the most statistically strong.

          • Jonathan Graham

            That what a dog does when he’s nervous of anxious

            Also when tired.

            Block of wood????

            Yes, the opinion there doesn’t provide any information other than an opinion from an anonymous source.

            Now come up with a scientific rebuttal

            The fact that you have nothing other than your magical belief in vitamin C to remove aluminum pretty much rebuts your belief Ron. You can’t SEE aluminum when you’re excreting it Ron. So there’s not even an anecdote that you could point to. This is just another fairy tale by Ron Roy.

          • Ron Roy

            5 upvotes from your fellow soldiers, Not impressive. Brrrr it’s getting shilly in here. Hey how about theta debate. The media will be there.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Ron I really want to debate you but you are offering nothing but to watch you talk. So why would I want that?

            The media will be there

            It’s kind of interesting that you have an obsession with the media. I think you think that this might somehow scare me off or something. However it seems that the only person who cares if the media is there or not is you. Do you not get enough attention at home Ron?

          • Ron Roy
          • Still not learnt the difference between evidence and claims yet, Ron?

          • AutismDadd

            The world of science has gone mad with profit over efficacy disease.

          • That’s why I call it $cience, it has nothing to do with actual science. They already know the results they need to attain before they even start their “studies” these days. it’s a joke, a big, sick, profit-making joke.

          • Gadad et al.

          • Dirty secrets? Not really. I can see what animals are used and then compare to the relevant biology textbook.

            “t has long been considered that all animals with the exceptions of guinea pigs, monkeys, and humans can produce their own vitamin C.”

            By the way, Gadad et al used Rhesus Macques – a type of Old World MONKEY.

          • AutismDadd

            Are you calling Vaccine advocates animals? Wish I had thought of that.

          • sabelmouse

            but the treatment isn’t proven. not to be safe, at least.

          • FallsAngel

            You’re full of it, sabel. The current vaccines have all been studied for safety and have been approved by the FDA. Those are the kind of treatments you cannot legally withhold from people.

          • sabelmouse

            hahaha, thanks for making me laugh.

          • Ron Roy
          • FallsAngel

            He doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

          • AutismDadd

            As if you could…snort!

          • Ron Roy

            You couldn’t anyway.

          • 655321

            Lol, because you can’t. That was funny, thanks for laugh.,

          • FallsAngel

            Since you insist:

            US vaccines are not made in China.
            https://www.verywell.com/are-vaccines-made-in-china-2634585
            “Well, some vaccines that are used in China probably are made in China, but you can be reassured that those that are used in the United States are not.

            While many vaccines aren’t made in the United States anymore, the vaccines in the yearly United States Childhood Immunization Schedule are made in countries where the FDA can closely monitor the manufacturing process of the vaccines for quality and safety.

            For example, Rotarix, the rotavirus vaccine that was approved in April 2008 by the FDA, is manufactured by GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals in Rixensart, Belgium.

            Where Are Our Vaccines Made?

            Even IXIARO, a Japanese Encephalitis vaccine, which is mainly used when people travel to areas of the world where Japanese Encephalitis is a problem, is surprisingly, made in the UK. Another,
            JE-VAX, is made in Japan.

            Most of the other vaccines are used in the United States are made in France, Canada, Belgium, Germany, or the United States, including:
            ActHIB (Hib) – Sanofi Pasteur SA in Lyon, France
            Adacel (Tdap) – Sanofi Pasteur Limited in Toronto, Ontario, Canada<